mandated shunning is on the rise around the world with devastating effects on millions of people.
shunning that is mandated by organized groups to its members is a form of both physical and psychological violence against those people being shunned and cut off from their family and life-long relationships.
mandated shunning means that the shunning is ordered from the top down.
Yep. Might as well have been. The average new member sits in how many meetings? Hears this from the platform how many times? Actually sees it happen how many times?
Right - they think we are all mentally diseased. So? I think THEY are mentally diseased. We're even.
The point here is that it is not and should not be a crime.
mandated shunning is on the rise around the world with devastating effects on millions of people.
shunning that is mandated by organized groups to its members is a form of both physical and psychological violence against those people being shunned and cut off from their family and life-long relationships.
mandated shunning means that the shunning is ordered from the top down.
There is nothing about removing an individual's right to decide who they talk to. Not one word.
It is about a group telling people that they will die if they talk to the "mentally diseased" if that isn't hate speech I don't know what is?
No. There is no such thing as "hate speech". There's all sorts of mean, cruel speech, but none of it fits into a bannable container that you label "hate speech". You couldn't define it, even if your life depended on it. It's a blanket term for "things I don't want people to say".
A society that values free speech, yet prohibits "hate speech" is a contradiction. It's a square circle, a married bachelor.
That being said, I get what you are saying, and trying to push you to examine what the consequences would be if you got your way. The nature of religion is that each religion thinks they are correct, to the exclusion of all other religions. If one religion has a belief that former members are bad (for whatever reason), and current members believe in the religion and agree, you are crossing into the individual purview. As we have seen on previous pages, people do the shunning, a lot of times in excess of what the WT would suggest.
What you really want is to outlaw the beliefs of the group, in favor of your beliefs.
And they are using God to coerce people into doing what they want not to protect people but to prevent them from leaving too if they find out they have been lied to.
Maybe. It doesn't matter. At one point we all had this conversation:
Group: "Hi, we're a group with a lot of rules. We are pretty strict with our rules, but we love people that agree with us and hate the dissenters. We think former group members are super bad, and we don't talk to them. Here is a list of our rules. Do you want to join?"
You: "Yep."
People in the religion agree with it. You don't agree, and you left. Great. The shunners still agree. You will have to force them into a position they don't want to hold.
In the WTS there is no honorable way to leave.
Yes there is: "Hey guys, this isn't for me. Thanks."
There is no compromise. No "agree to disagree".
Yeah, that's the nature of religion. They think they are right. It's the nature of political positions too. Which is why you want to stay away from this line of reasoning.
You are the "walking dead" and if JWs have contact with us then they too are dead.
Not really. Probably to the hard-core ones.
People do have the right to join any group they want and believe what they want. They do not have the right to force others to join or believe the same thing.
The WT isn't forcing anyone to join or stay. Don't brush aside your accountability, and don't brush aside your "loved ones" accountability either.
And the GROUP leaders do not have the right to force anyone to do things that are ethically wrong, no matter how much they want to control everyone.
They aren't.
original reddit post (removed).
"Reality" - A Haiku by Lloyd Evens
My penis exists
Uncontrollably erect
Mastery denied
here is what they say about 9/11 at the adress http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=101&contentid=483.
(march 10, 2002) -- eureka!
one of my readers, who calls himself.
All the tapes from my case that confirmed the manipulation of markets by the bankers were in WTC7.
Why do we need documents for this? The existence of the Federal Reserve and it's public purpose is to manipulate markets.
It's hard to think of a greater manipulation of markets than to fix the price of money...
mandated shunning is on the rise around the world with devastating effects on millions of people.
shunning that is mandated by organized groups to its members is a form of both physical and psychological violence against those people being shunned and cut off from their family and life-long relationships.
mandated shunning means that the shunning is ordered from the top down.
I'm more than comfortable agreeing that the WT's application of the Bible to support shunning is incorrect. I'm more than comfortable agreeing that shunning is harmful. I agree, also, it's not moral.
But I'm also keenly aware that the WT, and the witnesses that agree with the WT, do not agree with me.
So what do we do? I say X, they say Y. How do we resolve the issue? Each side isn't going to willingly concede.
Do people have a right to join a cult and believe the teachings of the cult?
mandated shunning is on the rise around the world with devastating effects on millions of people.
shunning that is mandated by organized groups to its members is a form of both physical and psychological violence against those people being shunned and cut off from their family and life-long relationships.
mandated shunning means that the shunning is ordered from the top down.
Yeah, its horrible.
But what you are proposing is legislating someone's religious beliefs. It makes no difference IF the WT didn't teach shunning. The point is they do. Your family believes it. They could choose to do something else, but they don't because they agree - enough to cast their family aside.
Shunning is a dick move - but don't let the family get away with removing their agency and blaming the WT. They can choose something else.
You are proposing legislation of the very foundations of freedom that allow you to leave the religion. Of course the ECHR would say something like that. They confuse rights with entitlements all the time. Notice, shunning is akin to "hate speech". Such a dangerous concept. Do you know how easily the free speech we are exercising here could be considered "hate speech" if certain people were to get the power you are so willing to use now?
So reckless, and you don't even realize it.
jw view gambling as a sin and sadly people get addicted to gambling causing them financial and health problems.
but is playing a couple of bucks a week on some lottery tickets actually gambling?
what do you have to lose?
Yep. Just the small stuff. For my kids some $5 tickets for Xmas.
My son won $50.
mandated shunning is on the rise around the world with devastating effects on millions of people.
shunning that is mandated by organized groups to its members is a form of both physical and psychological violence against those people being shunned and cut off from their family and life-long relationships.
mandated shunning means that the shunning is ordered from the top down.
@Drearyweather:
Exactly. Most of the examples given above just show how far parents, friends, and family go faaaaarrrr beyond what the WT says anyway.
That only goes to show - people have a choice. This "my-parents-had-no-choice-the-were-FORCED" line is false.
mandated shunning is on the rise around the world with devastating effects on millions of people.
shunning that is mandated by organized groups to its members is a form of both physical and psychological violence against those people being shunned and cut off from their family and life-long relationships.
mandated shunning means that the shunning is ordered from the top down.
Example 1: A couple with 2 children. The husband commits adultery, is disfellowshipped and the wife chooses to divorce him. She gets custody of the children and he gets visitation rights.
Ok.
She immediately begins demonizing him. Instead of helping the children maintain contact with his children, whom he had a good relationship with before, they are now refusing to see him.
Parental alienation. Happens all the time, in plenty of non-witness families. It doesn't take the WT for a vindictive former spouse to be an asshole.
The law says he has rights.
The overwhelming trend is that the courts won't care ... if it's a man.
he hasn't abused the. He pays child support. But she won't let him near them and has made them too scared to go.
This has very little to do with the WT. How do I know? This is a common occurrence in mens groups. If he has visitation, it's not the WT keeping his kids away, it's the nutcase ex-wife.
She is actively teaching the children to shun their father because he now serve Satan. This is called "alienation of affection" and it IS against the law in many places.
Alienation of affection is a rare law, it's constitutionality has been seriously questioned, it has to do with a third party interfering in an active marriage, and it's NOT A CRIME. It's a civil action, if anything. Good luck getting the courts to do anything about it. Parents poison their kids minds on the daily without any help from the WT, and this tort law is never appealed to as a remedy.
Example 2: Due to the court seeing the above, the judge decides that it is in the best interests of the children to place them with the father and she now has visitation rights.
Wouldn't happen. Not because she is teaching the kids their father is an evil "worldly" guy. But let's say for the sake of illustration, she is a basket case - insane, and the court acts on that. Carry on....
When she has them, she takes them to meetings and out in service. She studies with them and yup demonizes Dad again. alienation of affection The judge now insists on the wife not taking to the kids about the religion or taking them to meetings or out in service.
No. A judge wouldn't do that. You think a judge would wipe away her freedom of speech, religion, and association at the same time? Amazing.
So she gets her mother to study the Bible with them. You see where this is going?
No.
Example 3: A 15-yr old boy doesn't want to go to the meetings. He isn't doing anything wrong or hanging out with a bad group of kids. He is just fed up and doesn't want to go anymore. His parents insist and he digs in his heels. Arguments gets worse and the elders are called. Publications and the Bible is read but nothing is going to change this boy's mind. So the parents throw him out of the house. he has no where to go. They don't find another place for him. They don't try social services for a foster home. Just throw his things out of the house and let him figure it out.
[Snip the rest]
You admit the parents are breaking a current law by abandoning their child, a minor. You don't see an issue here?
First, the WT does not have a policy of abandonment. The parents, elders, whoever can try to claim its because of the WT policy, but it's not. This is actually a great example of people going far beyond. The issue here is that the parents and elders are good old-fashioned dicks.
But let's assume for a moment, just for the sake of argument, that the WT did condone this behavior. As per your example, they are already willing to break the law! What good would a new one do?
Second, this is your flesh and blood that you are supposed to love more than anyone else. Where exactly is the love? Threats of punishment, isolation, shunning. This is emotional abuse and it is wrong. Period.
Yyyeeaaap. Exactly! The problem here is the parents. They are morally depraved assholes. They don't love their child, and any claim to love their child is fake and empty. Why? Because they could choose differently. THEY choose.
Example 4: A couple has a baby and the DRs say t needs a blood transfusion. The HLC is right there to make sure the no blood policy is enforced. The parents, believing this rule comes from Jehovah (not the WTS) are devastated. One parent, caves in and signs the papers for the baby to get the care it needs.
Good for her!
She is disfellowshipped and then shunned for saving the life of her child. She continues to go to meetings but no one talks to her. Her husband barely talks to her about anything to make sure he isn't crossing a line.
Wow. Seems like another dick going far beyond the WT's own suggestion. But he's still a dick.
With all of this, plus her hormones going wild she is suffering from post-partum depression and attempts to commit suicide, believing everyone will be better off without her. neglect = emotional abuse
*sigh*. Yes, it's neglect. Emotional abuse. Yep. But I really challenge you to find the WT direction that says a husband should forsake husbandry duties because his wife is no longer a JW. In fact, I've heard quite the opposite. So in this example, again, we have people acting on their own, rooted in their own failure to perceive the moral thing to do.
More on the "what if the WT were different" arguments in a different post.
Example 5 and 6 : I'll have to address in another post.
Just too long.
mandated shunning is on the rise around the world with devastating effects on millions of people.
shunning that is mandated by organized groups to its members is a form of both physical and psychological violence against those people being shunned and cut off from their family and life-long relationships.
mandated shunning means that the shunning is ordered from the top down.
@Jan and Lee - and I suppose others similarly situated:
The people who reject you this way aren't your loved ones. They aren't your friends.
You might think they are your friends, and you might care for them. But objectively they are not your friends, and they don't really care for you.
I know this because they chose a publishing company over you. Whether its your friends or family, its not real. They might even believe they care, but they don't.
If its your parent, then your parents chose a publishing company over you. They chose to excise you from their life because a publishing company told them to.
People that do that aren't your friends either. They can't be. Part of the explicit definition of "friend" (and family) is to stick by your side when you are in need. These people literally did the opposite.
You might be reaching for the "if the WT would only change" excuse. If so, you still don't get it - all it took was one word, and your friends and family effortlessly moved your entire world into their trash bin. They didnt have to, but they did. You are worth less than a label given to them by a publishing company. That's the tragedy, that's the painful thing. The WT didn't take anything away from you - you never had it. It was all fake. Sure, you might have had "stand in" friends and family. But the foundation was always fake. That's what you get with a WT family. That's why it's a cult.
It makes it seem like your family and friends are all there, with all the warm acceptance your remember, if only... if only this pesky org would let them accept you. This tiny technicality. No, it's fake from the start, from the root. Don't let them off the hook!
Since you mentioned experiencing rejection, I'll share a little story about my cousin. She grew up in one of those families that were in deep. Really deep. Not as deep as mine. They took it seriously. When I left the WT, my cousin was right there with my aunts and uncles, righteously shunning me. I think some of them even wrote me letters to tell me the sheer amount of rebuke I was going to get, although I don't think this cousin was one of them. Time passed, she got married and eventually screwed it up. She had a guy in the side, got DFed, had a couple kids with him, and then he left her. Of course her family rejected her, completely and utterly. At some point she contacted me through social media. I didn't even know any of this had occured because I was out a long time before - I didn't care to keep aprised of any family that shunned me. I listened to her for a bit, and then reminded her that she did to me (and undoubtedly others) what her family is going to her now. It had to sting a bit. But as long as she wasn't rejecting me, I wouldn't reject her. She apologized a few days later. Good for her. She actually became good friends with my wife. They even have matching tattoos. But that's a story for a different time.
But here's the part that matters to the topic - her parents still wanted to see the grandkids. Of course they would subtly try to affect the kids. My wife's parents did the same thing. At some point we told her she should think about what she's allowing her parents to do. Her kids would become aware of the treatment soon, and she was just letting them treat her that way. So she decided to pull away, not to be vindictive, but to keep herself and her kids away from the moral depravity and gaslighting. She told them that she would no longer accept the shunning. Everything is a packaged deal. Everyone or nobody. You know what happened? They all shunned the living shit out her. I mean they stepped it up. And why not? After all, she had allowed it in the past. But she just cut it off. Time passed. It hurt, but she would later tell my wife and I that it was for the best. Being away from the treatment and gaslighting allowed her to get a clear head, and she said she felt more content than she had ever really felt. Soon, a message from the mom came. She held her ground. Time passed. More messages. After about 2 years, her mom conceded, came over, hugged her daughter and played with the grand kids. Her father was tougher, but eventually conceded too. Of course, if you ask him, they are doing nothing wrong.
From what I heard, they both got some mild gaslighting from the other family (Jah might judge you adversely for this) But that's about it. Nobody was willing to take it to the next layer of people.
People can choose! - but they won't if you let them think what they are doing is ok. They have personal accountability for their decisions. Don't let them push it off onto the WT. And if they absolutely won't give it up - it sucks but they aren't "loved ones". They never were.
