Posts by alice.in.wonderland

156

Worldly Shunning

by alice.in.wonderland in

i hear quite a bit of criticism about jehovah's witnesses enforcing 1 corinthians 5:9-13. while jehovah's witnesses have a formal system of maintaining the organization's core values; egocentric, self-worshiping secularists have an informal system of rejecting those of whom they have nothing in common with.

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth-32-390-religion.aspx.

most major religions have believed in the existence of a supernatural realm, a realm beyond the natural world of physical objects and bodies governed by causal laws, the world we perceive with our senses and can study by rational methods.

alice.in.wonderland

"Nearly every post Alice makes is condescending, insulting and snide. If she asks you a personal question, it is not out of concern, it is to gather enough personal information to insult you. I've seen it over and over.

She herself has even questioned why she has not been booted off this forum. Why Lady Lee expects an apology from all of us to Alice, is beyond my comprehension. I can only believe LL has not read all of what Alice has posted.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to have any kind of discussion with Alice, as she does not get the sense of anything you all say. She picks some obscure point in your post that means nothing and runs with it, and we all follow.

Until she gets real help wth her mental illness, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to reason with her. Incidentally, manipulation of others is a prominent trait of certain mental disorders and she exhibits it very well here."

If you think I came here or if you think you are going to convert someone to your way of thinking or belief, then you couldn't have been more mistaken. People with any sense who are looking for an alternate belief system don't come to forums. For the most part, people are thoroughly entrenched in their beliefs, either through tradition, fervor, exhaustive study and experience, or all of the former. There are some here that do learn about the "other" in the true spirit of a mutually beneficial exchange of knowledge or to sharpen their critical reasoning skills against opposing points of view.

The site owner stated; “Oh, and the JW / jedi mind tricks where people think double-speak like the WTS uses will allow them to get away with things doesn't work here because we see through it (you know, where the WTS claims "we never said that" when it's obvious that they did to anyone familiar with their internal code-speak).”

Interpreting logic that can be deduced as “Jedi minds tricks” is an excuse to put irrefutable logic out of your mind and resort to personal attacks that I should take quietly. Someone calls me hypocrite and I retaliate. Then you come along and complain you are tired of being called stupid when I wasn't even talking to you. Take off the blinders and keep it real.

156

Worldly Shunning

by alice.in.wonderland in

i hear quite a bit of criticism about jehovah's witnesses enforcing 1 corinthians 5:9-13. while jehovah's witnesses have a formal system of maintaining the organization's core values; egocentric, self-worshiping secularists have an informal system of rejecting those of whom they have nothing in common with.

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth-32-390-religion.aspx.

most major religions have believed in the existence of a supernatural realm, a realm beyond the natural world of physical objects and bodies governed by causal laws, the world we perceive with our senses and can study by rational methods.

alice.in.wonderland

"Not only is there no wisdom in "apostasy," people seem to have left their brain at the Kingdom Hall when they left the building.

She openly admits that she no longer attends the Kingdom Hall herself. Where's your brain Alice? Still in the building?"

I attended the meeting today. None the less, not currently attending meetings does not constitute apostasy. Deliberately distorting Bible teachings (deliberate ignorance) when you know the truth does. It's somewhat interesting to challenge these arguments and set the record straight.

"Have you got short term memory problems, Alice? You came here blaming other people on your first thread and have never stopped."

Recap and read my first post: It's people here that immediately started picking at me and have resorted to passing judgment on me since my very first post. I don't use the internet in an attempt to convert anyone. There are some control freaks here that are very invasive and like to pry.

15

Disfellowshipping = Capital Punishment (death) under the Law

by blondie in

jw
friends

the wts has said that disfellowshipping offenses in the congregation equal the ones that resulted in execution in the nation of israel.. "insight on the scriptures" vol.

1, page 787 - heading expelling - under the mosaic law.

"expelling - judicial excommunication, or disfellowshipping...analogous to the powers of capital punishment (death)...during jesus' earthly ministry the synagogues served as courts.

alice.in.wonderland

it-1 p. 787 Expelling

Under the Mosaic Law. For serious or deliberate violations of God’s law given through Moses a person could be cut off, that is, put to death. (Le 7:27; Nu 15:30, 31) Apostasy, idolatry, adultery, eating blood, and murder were among the offenses carrying this penalty.—De 13:12-18; Le 20:10; 17:14; Nu 35:31.

This is if a person was unrepentant.

it-1 p. 590 David

Jehovah was watching, however, and uncovered the whole reprehensible matter. If Jehovah had permitted the case involving David and Bath-sheba to be handled by human judges under the Mosaic Law, both of the wrongdoers would have been put to death, and of course, the unborn offspring of their adultery would have died with the mother. (De 5:18; 22:22) Jehovah dealt with the case himself and showed mercy to David because of the Kingdom covenant (2Sa 7:11-16), no doubt because David himself had shown mercy (1Sa 24:4-7; compare Jas 2:13) and because of repentance that God observed on the part of the wrongdoers.

When the Mosaic law covenant was replaced, capital punishment was not a part of the Christian congregations.

it-1 p. 524 Covenant

New Covenant. Jehovah foretold the new covenant by the prophet Jeremiah in the seventh century B.C.E., stating that it would not be like the Law covenant, which Israel broke. (Jer 31:31-34) On the night before his death, Nisan 14, 33 C.E., when he established the celebration of the Lord’s Evening Meal, Jesus Christ announced the new covenant, to be validated by his sacrifice. (Lu 22:20) On the 50th day from his resurrection and 10 days after he had ascended to his Father, he poured out the holy spirit, which he had received from Jehovah, on his disciples gathered in an upper room in Jerusalem.—Ac 2:1-4, 17, 33; 2Co 3:6, 8, 9; Heb 2:3, 4.

It was apostate Christian churches that burned people at the stake if they happened to disagree with the Pope or his/her Majesty.

Elizabeth (1998) - Part 1

156

Worldly Shunning

by alice.in.wonderland in

i hear quite a bit of criticism about jehovah's witnesses enforcing 1 corinthians 5:9-13. while jehovah's witnesses have a formal system of maintaining the organization's core values; egocentric, self-worshiping secularists have an informal system of rejecting those of whom they have nothing in common with.

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth-32-390-religion.aspx.

most major religions have believed in the existence of a supernatural realm, a realm beyond the natural world of physical objects and bodies governed by causal laws, the world we perceive with our senses and can study by rational methods.

alice.in.wonderland

“Yes, we do have a communication problem. The topic is "Wordly Shunning". Your first post on this extolls the virtues shunning by other faiths with the implication that it's cool for JW's shun based on the GB's interpretation of scripture.

You stated in the past that you are a JW. On this thread, you bragged about associating with DF'd family members. You freely associate with the DF'd members of this forum. Page 2 of this thread quotes your faith's position on dealing with DF'd persons. Everytime you post on a forum such as this or associate with DF'd family is in disobedience to your faith's 'administrators.' You are a hypocrite.”

You're pointing the finger at me by drawing on a belief system that in effect brings judgment on yourself. I generally don't do that unless someone else starts the blame game.

Stop judging that you may not be judged; for with what judgment you are judging, you will be judged; and with the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you. Matthew 7:1-2

Drawing on beliefs you reject yourself even makes less sense. Just because you reject something doesn't make you right.

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth-32-390-Religion.aspx

The dominant forms of religion in our culture posit a personal god, a Supreme Being, who created the world, is omnipotent and omniscient, imposes moral duties on man, and expects worship. Those who accept this idea have the burden of showing why such a hypothesis is necessary. In this regard, Objectivists are atheists because the arguments for the existence of such a being are not sound. Objectivists reject the existence of God for the same reason they reject the existence of elves, leprechauns, and unicorns: because there is no credible evidence of such beings.

Objectivism regards reason as an absolute. It holds that all knowledge is based on the evidence of the senses. It holds that all beliefs, conclusions, and convictions must be established by logical methods of inquiry and tested by logical methods of verification. In short, it holds that the scientific approach applies to all areas of knowledge. Blind faith, by contrast, consists in belief not based on evidence, or based on such spurious forms of "evidence" as revelation and authority. Faith is essentially an arbitrary exercise of the mind, a willful credulity based on subjective emotions rather than objective evidence, a desire for certainty without the scrupulous cognitive effort required to achieve rational certainty. Faith cannot substitute for reason as a means of knowledge, nor can it supplement reason. Reason is incompatible with arbitrary procedures of any kind.

Objectivism holds that "spiritual values" can be defined in secular terms, and on that basis agrees that they are of vital importance to fulfillment and happiness. Spiritual values are those pertaining to the needs of human consciousness, arising from the human capacity for reason, creativity, free will, and self-awareness. These needs include self-esteem, love, art, and philosophy (a comprehensive view of existence), among others.

On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. For by means of this the men of old times had witness borne to them. Hebrews 11:1-2

You can find evidence for God that meets the criteria of scientific evidence in Jehovah's Organization. You can't find this in any other religion, that's why many people don't believe God exists.

156

Worldly Shunning

by alice.in.wonderland in

i hear quite a bit of criticism about jehovah's witnesses enforcing 1 corinthians 5:9-13. while jehovah's witnesses have a formal system of maintaining the organization's core values; egocentric, self-worshiping secularists have an informal system of rejecting those of whom they have nothing in common with.

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth-32-390-religion.aspx.

most major religions have believed in the existence of a supernatural realm, a realm beyond the natural world of physical objects and bodies governed by causal laws, the world we perceive with our senses and can study by rational methods.

alice.in.wonderland

"I'm sure forums that apostates and DF'd persons frequent fall into this category. You are a hypocrite because you are a JW who does not follow the directives of your faith."

It seems we have a communication problem. Are self proclaimed apostates anything other than a social irritant?

This was stated by one of the brightest contributors in the last forum I participated in:

You think wrongly. While most of the world's smartest people are atheists, there is no wisdom to be found in atheism itself. Atheism is just the condition you find yourself in when you recognize that all of the known arguments for gods are specious. However, many atheists have plenty of wisdom, and wherever wisdom can be found, atheists are there, including in churches. Posted by tony62

Not only is there no wisdom in "apostasy," people seem to have left their brain at the Kingdom Hall when they left the building. I can't even engage in an intelligent conversation without someone dumbing down the conversation. Quit being retarded.

156

Worldly Shunning

by alice.in.wonderland in

i hear quite a bit of criticism about jehovah's witnesses enforcing 1 corinthians 5:9-13. while jehovah's witnesses have a formal system of maintaining the organization's core values; egocentric, self-worshiping secularists have an informal system of rejecting those of whom they have nothing in common with.

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth-32-390-religion.aspx.

most major religions have believed in the existence of a supernatural realm, a realm beyond the natural world of physical objects and bodies governed by causal laws, the world we perceive with our senses and can study by rational methods.

alice.in.wonderland

"I have to agree, you lose alot of credibility coming on a site that you are totally not supposed to and defending things you clearly dont believe in yourself."

Let's clear this up.

lv chap. 5 p. 54 par. 9 How to Keep Separate From the World

Can the spirit of the world take root in your mind and heart? Yes, but only if you let it do so by lowering your guard. (Proverbs 4:23) Its influence often begins subtly, perhaps by way of associates who may appear to be good people but, in fact, have no love for Jehovah. (Proverbs 13:20; 1 Corinthians 15:33) You can also absorb that evil spirit through objectionable literature, pornographic or [apostate Internet sites], unwholesome entertainment, and highly competitive sports—really, through anyone or anything that conveys the thinking of Satan or his system.

rs p. 36 - p. 37 Apostasy

How serious is apostasy?

2 Pet. 2:1: “These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.”

Job 13:16: “Before him [God] no apostate will come in.”

Heb. 6:4-6: “It is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but who have fallen away [“if they then commit apostasy,” RS], to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.”

For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. Of how much more severe a punishment, do you think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? For we know him that said: “Vengeance is mine; I will recompense”; and again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God. Hebrews 10:26-31

I can't read minds and hearts and you likewise do not know what I believe aside from what I tell you. If you don't fit this description you're not an apostate.

156

Worldly Shunning

by alice.in.wonderland in

i hear quite a bit of criticism about jehovah's witnesses enforcing 1 corinthians 5:9-13. while jehovah's witnesses have a formal system of maintaining the organization's core values; egocentric, self-worshiping secularists have an informal system of rejecting those of whom they have nothing in common with.

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth-32-390-religion.aspx.

most major religions have believed in the existence of a supernatural realm, a realm beyond the natural world of physical objects and bodies governed by causal laws, the world we perceive with our senses and can study by rational methods.

alice.in.wonderland

"You profess to be an inactive JW who actively associates with DF'd persons, ignoring 'administrative' directives of your faith. You are a hypocrite."

Hypocrisy is the act of persistently professing beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that are inconsistent with one's actions. Hypocrisy is thus a kind of lie. - Wikipedia

If you want to get this personal I'm not persistently professing beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards, I'm simply countering slander that runs rife here. Lay off personalizing strangers. You know nothing about me.

156

Worldly Shunning

by alice.in.wonderland in

i hear quite a bit of criticism about jehovah's witnesses enforcing 1 corinthians 5:9-13. while jehovah's witnesses have a formal system of maintaining the organization's core values; egocentric, self-worshiping secularists have an informal system of rejecting those of whom they have nothing in common with.

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth-32-390-religion.aspx.

most major religions have believed in the existence of a supernatural realm, a realm beyond the natural world of physical objects and bodies governed by causal laws, the world we perceive with our senses and can study by rational methods.

alice.in.wonderland

""If we are to walk in the light of truth we must recognize not only Jehovah God as our Father but his organization as our mother.... Today, also, God requires and exacts from his children obedience honor and respect. These must be rendered not only to the living God himself, but to his wifely organization as well" Watchtower, 1 May 1957, p. 274"

If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also. 1 John 4:20-21

The way a person relates to God's human organization has something to do with the way a person relates to God. Do you respect the organization? Not likely. That's why I said what I said.

156

Worldly Shunning

by alice.in.wonderland in

i hear quite a bit of criticism about jehovah's witnesses enforcing 1 corinthians 5:9-13. while jehovah's witnesses have a formal system of maintaining the organization's core values; egocentric, self-worshiping secularists have an informal system of rejecting those of whom they have nothing in common with.

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth-32-390-religion.aspx.

most major religions have believed in the existence of a supernatural realm, a realm beyond the natural world of physical objects and bodies governed by causal laws, the world we perceive with our senses and can study by rational methods.

alice.in.wonderland

"You hold up the WTBS practice of shunning as being scripturally based, yet you don't follow it."

And you adhere to all of God's laws? I'm not a hypocrite because I haven't professed to be anyone or anything I'm not.

156

Worldly Shunning

by alice.in.wonderland in

i hear quite a bit of criticism about jehovah's witnesses enforcing 1 corinthians 5:9-13. while jehovah's witnesses have a formal system of maintaining the organization's core values; egocentric, self-worshiping secularists have an informal system of rejecting those of whom they have nothing in common with.

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth-32-390-religion.aspx.

most major religions have believed in the existence of a supernatural realm, a realm beyond the natural world of physical objects and bodies governed by causal laws, the world we perceive with our senses and can study by rational methods.

alice.in.wonderland

“Why are you associating with DF'd people on this board? Doesn't the governing body tell you not to go on these sites? Why are you here? You aren't going to convince anybody.”

The “governing body” isn't anyone's mommy. They simply have a relative position to maintain orderliness like any other administrative position in an organization.