Posts by tec

258

i wish more churches would preach truth like this

by unstopableravens in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncehcvrvgq.

tec

Jgnat, I would have answered your question the same as you did. One is not a native american by their clothes or customs, etc... one is a native american by birth/blood. So one can wear inauthentic clothing and still be an authentic native american. There is nothing saying that a native american must dress and do the same as his/her ancestors in order to remain a native american.

I don't see how that applies to a Christian though.

You did acknolwedge that the clothing on the native american was inauthentic. So putting that into perspective... Unstop and I are discussing the clothing. But Truth does not change. Hell did not evolve and become a reality, adapting to the times ; ) The doctrine of hell however did evolve, and that is the inauthentic button/clothing being discussed. What is false does not come from the Truth... but rather from something other than the Truth.

Make sense?

Peace,

tammy

258

i wish more churches would preach truth like this

by unstopableravens in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncehcvrvgq.

tec

I don't think you've looked at the dilemmas that this hell belief present.

But to each his own. Perhaps later, especially if you start to have doubts of your own about it, you may remember some of these things that we discussed, and turn still to Christ.

So... do you want to move on to another point from the OP and my comments on mr washer and his sermon? (though discussing it from my end will have to wait until tomorrow, as I am going to be getting ready for work momentarily)

Peace,

tammy

258

i wish more churches would preach truth like this

by unstopableravens in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncehcvrvgq.

tec

As per the pics that show that they are throwing poo at one another... I don't think there has been a single insult exchanged between Unstop and myself... just disagreement and discussion.

Just sayin'

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, Jgnat. How would you answer your own question?

Peace,

tammy

258

i wish more churches would preach truth like this

by unstopableravens in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncehcvrvgq.

tec

Well from my belief mr teaches truth.

Yes, of course. I understand this.

Same as from the beliefs and pov of the jws, the GB/wts teaches truth.

But this is why we are discussing, right? To see if a certain teaching holds as true when tested against Christ, against what is written, against love... so that we can know if it came from God, or not.

You tec also deny that jesus as the word always existed. Correct me if I'm wrong about your stance.

I suppose the answer might depend upon when time began... and what you mean by 'always' existed.

Because Christ is a begotten son; and a firstborn.

So what do you mean by 'always'?

Peace,

tammy

258

i wish more churches would preach truth like this

by unstopableravens in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncehcvrvgq.

tec

Well, there you go. You know that the things the wts teach are false, and you can see where they do not listen to Christ. So how can they know Him?

How is that different from anything I said about mr washer?

Peace,

tammy

258

i wish more churches would preach truth like this

by unstopableravens in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncehcvrvgq.

tec

Also.. this is what I actually said:

This man does not know the Truth, and/or is not listening TO the Truth. (who is Christ) Else he would not be able to speak lies and call them truth.

Peace,

tammy

258

i wish more churches would preach truth like this

by unstopableravens in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncehcvrvgq.

tec

May I ask you something then Unstop?

Does the wts know Christ?

Why or why not?

(and you said you were going to address the other points.. so we can do that now if you want, but it is up to you if you still want to do that)

Peace,

tammy

258

i wish more churches would preach truth like this

by unstopableravens in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncehcvrvgq.

tec

i think the best way to see hell and the lake of fire is this. when a person commites a crime he is arrested, where does he go ? to jail(hell) than he sees the jugde than hes thrown in prison(lake of fire)

Not a bad analogy. Just that interpretation needs a bit of tweaking to bring it in line with the truth.

One committs a crime and goes to the holding cell (jail/hades/sheol/world of the dead... the wages of sin is death). Then on judgment day, one is given freedom (life)... or judgment (the lake of fire... the second death).

Because the account states specifically what the lake of fire IS: the second death. Even states it twice.

Your article that linked, and you also now, make it clear that you understand that the words translated for hell... comes mainly from hades/sheol (world of the dead)... not the lake of fire. Sometimes other words are used to translate into hell but come from something else; obscuring the original meanings. Does that not give you pause to consider the truth of this docrtine?

Your linked article has a lot of ideas that are not correct and I would rather continue our own discussion (rather than argue with someone who is not here) or move on to another point... but just from its summary:

Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) are the temporary place of torment for the souls of the wicked dead.

There is no torment. Neither of those words connotate torment. And all the dead go there who are not in Christ... (wicked or otherwise.. although doesn't your theology state that all are wicked?)... including all the dead BEFORE Christ.

There is also NO inkling of two parts of hades as this author claims... some for the wicked and some for the 'good'... not from any of the prophets of Israel/or from anything written. I assume he has built that entire doctrine on his personal interpretation of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

But it does not hold when scrutinized.

The wages of sin is death. Not torment. Plus... now this author has added something new. The place of temporary torment... until those same ones are tossed into the place of eternal torment. But NONE of these in the 'temporary torment' have been judged yet... so as to be deemed wicked... or... deemed 'good'. So how can there be two places in the one place (hades)... some for the wicked and some for the good?

The judgment has not yet occurred!

Don't just accept what people are passing off as wisdom or reason or truth. THINK!

Prior to Christ's resurrection, saints were kept and comforted in the now vacant half of Hades, known as Abraham's Bosom.

Saints are those who are in Christ. No saint goes to the world of the dead, but rather these go under the altar. And again... see above for this idea of a good and bad half of hades.

Gehenna(Greek, but from a Hebrew name) is the Lake of Fire for the permanent place of torment of the souls of the wicked dead in their resurrected bodies.

Even if his connection here is correct... the lake of fire is the second death.

And... those who were cast into gehenna (the refuse pit) were dead when they were thrown in. They were not thrown in alive. I'm fairly certain that at some point their bodies fully decomposed as well.

Something else in this doctrine that is a bit odd... just a little interesting tidbit. Remember this verse:

"Do not be afraid of those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (this 'hell' is one that is translated from gehenna)

First of course... note the word used: destroy.

Not torment.

Second... this doctrine of hell emphasises that God must first give back the body so that both soul and body can be tormented (even though the word is destroy, not torment) in hell (gehenna). Putting the emphasis on the body being tormented after resurrection... since the soul was supposedly already being tormented in hades. (but that would not be just, and that is also not biblical, because... a) the wages of sin is death, and b) they have not been judged yet)

But from the words that Christ gave... the emphasis and addition is on the soul (spirit).

Fear not the one who can kill the body but not the soul... fear the one who can destroy both body and soul.

Again though: note that the words used in this instance are kill... and destroy. NOT torment and torture.

Just an interesting side note. Do you still want to discuss the doctrine of hell, or move on to one of the other points?

Peace to you,

tammy

258

i wish more churches would preach truth like this

by unstopableravens in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncehcvrvgq.

tec

For Simon:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/private/266325/1/Does-the-Spirit-who-is-Christ-speak-and-how#.Ust0qRwsyqU

The thread was locked, and certainly there are other threads that I could link to on that topic if I go looking. But in order to attempt to keep this thread on topic (and I did not go 'there' here, even though others seem to want me to)... I linked to that instead, at least to start. I know i answered that question somewhere, and I will answer it again if you want... and Unstop doesn't mind the derailment... but I am trying to keep Unstop and I on our discussion.

Which is one reason I did not answer Jgnat's question, as I think Unstop and I have plenty to discuss without adding another point of disagreement, though there will be some agreements as well. I prefer the apostles creed over the nicene creed... but I prefer (and will follow) Christ over any creed. Or doctrine, or denomination, or religion, or men, or teachings/traditions of men.

Peace to you both,

tammy

258

i wish more churches would preach truth like this

by unstopableravens in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncehcvrvgq.

tec

So, Unstop... are you still not going to respond to the questions that I asked?

Was Christ burning in hell? Were all the people in hell - including all of Israel - in hell BEFORE the judgment? Do people get resurrected from hell... to be judged THEN... and then thrown back into hell?

You recall the points about how different words are all translated hell. (hades, sheol, gehenna... etc)

Is the lake of fire hell... or is hades hell?

How is hell thrown into hell?

What about all the verses that specifically speak about destruction?

You said that Christ spoke more about hell... than heaven... perhaps so... but He spoke more about the Kingdom, far more about the Kingdom, than 'hell' (hell in brackets because it was most often translated from hades)

Because I already know that we can go back and forth on the scripture. But you keep throwing out other verses without responding to these questions. These questions will remain until/unless they are answered. Throwing out new verses but not answering the questions that show that hell doctrine makes no sense... doesn't move the discussion forward.

So the verse that you are now talking about:

(but lets start at verse 9)

They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who decieved them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormneted day and night for ever and ever.

So first a point in the literal reading of the verse: the people were devoured by the fire that came from heaven. But the 'they' in the 'they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever' refers here to the devil, the beast and the false prophet.

Now a question:

Unless you believe the 'beast' is a literal living beast... (ten horns, seven heads, one head being wounded but healed)... how can it be literally tormented in the first place? Much less for ever and ever?

(The word used for forever may also be used for 'age'; or a time period. Though I think it is most often used as forever... as in for all time. But I believe I mentioned earlier how the devil (a spirit being) would take longer to be destroyed by fire, as he is stronger than those who were resurrected just enough to be given life... or to be judged, and thrown into the lake of fire)

Keep also in mind this... the last enemy to be DESTROYED is death. Death and hades tossed into the lake of fire... that is where they are destroyed. Not tormented for ever and ever... but destroyed, no more, done.

I'm not trying to 'win' points or anything with you, Unstop. Just want you to look at these things, THINK about whether or not this doctrine that others are teaching you about God... makes sense; and preferably to ask and hear the answer for yourself.

We can move on to another point if you like. You don't have to answers those questions on the board if you would rather not. But hopefully you will think about them yourself, at least.

Peace to you,

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

tammy