Posts by tec

243

Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

by DS211 in

jw
friends

if you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?

for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?

and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?

tec

So... Adam going post by post to my points is fine... you don't find that annoying. But me doing the same... that IS annoying. Double standard there, Coma, revealing your own bias.

Of course, TEC FINALLY played her 'trump card' (at least, what she thinks of as her 'trump card', when everyone else might call it a 'chump card'), the one where she claims to possess TRUTH directly from Jesus; it was played to support the claim that God allowed evolution to be "baked into the cake" in Genesis.

Not a trump card... or it would actually work with people, right? Nor have i ever said that anyone has to believe or should believe just because I (or another) claims to have learned it from the Spirit. Please re-read that sentence, anyone who IS reading, because it contradicts the whole 'trump card' accusation.

I countered with Jesus' ignorance of other TRUTHS about "God's creations" which we've since learned from science, eg Jesus didn't know anything about the germ theory of disease, since he poo-poohed the value of handwashing;

No, he did not poo=poo handwashing. The Pharisess were finding fault with Christ and his disciples by asking why they forego the traditions of the elders by not giving their hands CEREMONIAL washing. Hence ceremonially 'unclean' hands. Christ pointed out their hypocrisy. The whole cleaning the outside of the cup (or vessel, that is us)... but inside the cup (or vessel) is unclean.

Read the entire accounts at Mark 7: 1-23; and Matthew 15: 1-20

So those accounts have nothing to do with ignorance of germs; there was another lesson at play, the one on hypocrisy, the one on what is unclean. (meaning what is in the heart: and that what comes out of the heart is what makes a man unclean, like evil thoughts, greed, malice, jealousy, etc)

Surely you, who is supposedly 'schooling me on NT theology' understands this?

Jesus claimed possessing God's authorization to forgive sins in order to cure human diseases (which wasn't so unique, really, since even putting aside the examples of the many other charismatic Jewish Messianic claimaints who wandered about Palestine performing acts of healing, recall that the Jewish Temple priests ALSO claimed to possess God's authority to cure leprosy via forgiveness of sins; Temple priests followed an elaborate ritual delineated in the Torah, involving dipping a pigeon in the blood of another; the process has inspired Carribean voodoo witch doctors for 1,000's of years).

Please back that up with what is actually written.

Because from the examples that ARE written, read Luke 17: 26...

Chirst forgave a paralytic man his sins. The man did not get up and walk from that. But only after Christ told him to get up and walk (had the power to do so); the paralytic had already demonstrated his faith just in coming TO Christ to BE healed.

The Pharisees grumbled, 'Who is this fellow speaking blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

Christ answered, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? Which is easier to say, Your sins are forgiven', or, 'Get up and walk?' But so that YOU KNOW that the Son fo Man has authority on earth to fogive sins... " He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mate, and go home."

Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went hom praising God.

Christ did not heal by forgiveness of sins. The healing was evidence to the people that He DID have the authority to forgive sins; and also that He was who He claimed to be.

But even further, we're now seeing unmistakeable signs of TECs ignorance of Xian theology (which further erodes the claim of hearing the voice of Jesus, since you'd suspect that Jesus would understand the principles by which he claimed to heal)!

Well, Xian theology, which you have shown that you do not have a grasp upon yourself... is made up of various and multiples sources, with various and multiple schools of thought. So yeah, I FREELY admit to being ignorant of it. Why should I believe one theologian over another, or any at all? How do THEY know? I mean, the things that you are presenting above are not even backed up by what is written. So your source is not that great.

Every single incident regarding healing had to do with FAITH to BE healed, and the power that Christ had TO heal those of faith. tec

LOL! That is demonstrably WRONG. Flat-out INCORRECT... adamah

You sure about that, Adamah? What about how he could not heal or peform miracles many miracles among those with no faith?

But here are a couple of examples of faith healing:

Matthew 8, the leper:

"Lord if you are willing, you can make me clean."

'Jesus' reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately he was cured of his leporosy.

And also in response to the centurion who asked that his servant be healed, and that Christ could do so just with a word,

""I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith... " Then 'Jesus' said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed in that very hour.

or Matt 9:22

"Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you."

Or Matt 9:20

"According to your faith will it be done to you"; and their sight was restored.

Or Mark 10: 51-52

"What do you want me to do for you?" 'Jesus' asked him.

The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see."

"Go," said 'Jesus "your faith has healed you."

Are there some scriptures that you can show that demonstrates that people were healed when Christ forgave them their sins? DS211 makes a good point above as well, that Christ forgave those who sinned against him and executed him... did they all suddenly become free of illness at that time?

As for this:

Here's a page "your Lord" might wish to study, since he clearly needs to learn "his" own schtick before he goes commanding others to preach his message (and ironically, Jesus probably should have a bit less faith in himself, or his abilities, since it's unwarranted, based on the ignorance on display in your words).

All the examples that you gave are about people being healed by FAITH. So I am at a loss as to why you are arguing it when I am stating the SAME thing.

I'm going to send this, and then continue with the rest of what you have written in another post.

But your 'he healed by forgiving sins' is not backed up in what is written, and I cannot believe that you have found a 'theologian' who thinks that. I would be curious to see a link to such reasoning.

Peace,

tammy

243

Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

by DS211 in

jw
friends

if you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?

for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?

and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?

tec

*sigh*

Really this thread does not need to be about me. Nor should this thread be about me. I offered some suggestions, some things that the OP could consider, and I was quite content to leave it at that... but as is always the case, certain people will never allow me to leave it at that, but instead make the thread about me, and my faith, and not the content of anything I have shared or written.

Coma, I am sorry that you have become one of those who seeks to find fault with me at any turn, regardless of whether something has been shown to be true or not. I did not post as I did to purposely offend or stir the pot, or anything of the sort. I simply spoke honestly. Did I know that some would be offended and annoyed if I am honest? Of course I know that. But what am I supposed to do about that? Lie? Atheists saying there is no God, or that religion is child abuse, etc... are also offending people by what they say, but they say so because they believe it; not to purposely offend. Do you think that they should take their 'anti-theism' crap elsewhere?

Engage or ignore, as you choose... but stop blaming me for what you choose and help to do.

I'm not responding to any more of the 'tammy is so offensive and insulting, tammy is crazy, tammy is a liar, tammy is delusional, tammy should shut up or go away, etc etc'. Want to discuss content of what is written... great. The rest is pointless.

My apologies again to the OP for my part in the turn of your thread.

Peace,

tammy

243

Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

by DS211 in

jw
friends

if you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?

for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?

and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?

tec

at least tammy doesn't tell us she's jesus christ (peace be uppon him) reincarnated.

I can guarantee you, j.hofer, that I would get far LESS attention if i DID claim this, lol.

Mainly because no one would believe that. It has no support. The Spirit being alive and speaking is another matter; that has support in what is written (ot and the witness testimonies of the NT, as well as from others throughout time regardless of whether they were written about in the bible or not)

The problem is, while there ARE conditions KNOWN to result from genetic defects, there's also conditions which result from exposure to pathogens which has NOTHING TO DO WITH SIN: those are NON-GENETIC DISEASES resulting from infection by 'pathogens'.

NO GENES INVOLVED.

Leprosy is exactly SUCH an example, since it's caused by a gram-negative bacteria. NOT SIN (and Jesus cured leprosy by forgiving sins).

Yes, but this flesh is also prone/vulnerable to such things.

An angel (spirit being) is not vulnerable to pathogens or genetic diseases. That vessel (spirit body) does not get sick and die, as it does not have sin and death in it. Our vessel (physical body, as it is now) does have sin and death in it... otherwise we would NOT get sick and we would not die.

Now, I DID miss part of what you were saying, and I am being reminded by my Lord to go back and address this.

I take full responsibility for missing it, because my Lord did point out that you were saying peoples illnesses were being healed by forgiveness - which is incorrect - and I dealt only with the issue of sin being in the flesh, and so that being the reason our flesh gets sick, ages, dies. So I am sorry, truly, because we went off on a tangent because I did not listen, and I did not fully read your words and break them down. (one of the reasons I DO break things down is so NOT to miss things like this) So I must address that issue, because it is separate from sin and death in the flesh.

That was his schtick: he supposedly healed by forgiving sins (where the standard cure for leprosy performed by the Temple priests and recorded in Leviticus is tantamount to a voodoo ritual performed by a witch doctor in the Caribbean Islands, involving pigeon blood, shaking of rattles, etc.

He did not heal by forgiving sins. He healed by the power in Him, as is shown regarding the woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. He said, "Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out from me." (Luke 8: 43-47)... and according to the faith those who wanted to be healed had in them. (Daughter, your faith has healed you, go in peace. Luke 8: 48)

Every single incident regarding healing had to do with FAITH to BE healed, and the power that Christ had TO heal those of faith.

So, the question is, is that an example of 'truth' which you 'know', after Jesus told you a TRUTH?

I gave you as much as I am able understand... to get a sense of the truth.

Because though there are things we cannot yet bear (understand) He can help us to be able to grasp/get the sense of something. That is why I said sin and death in the flesh it is SIMILAR to something being written upon our DNA (something that is in the flesh).

Wait a minute: wouldn't you simply look to the one who IS the source of TRUTH and simply "KNOW"?

Depends. Might need to learn some basic addition first, before leaping straight to the calculus.

(milk, before meat)

TEC said- In any case, the means of creating them according to their kind is not described, so to be dogmatic that it means God created them 'poof' as a finished work, is not justified.

And how exactly do you KNOW that? Is that "truth" gotten from Jesus, or are you just simply making crap up again?

Is there anything in what I stated there that is untrue?

Because we can see from the account - black and white - that the means of "creating them according to their kind" is not described.

Peace to you,

tammy

243

Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

by DS211 in

jw
friends

if you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?

for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?

and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?

tec

It would be... but I said straight out that I am guessing, and I also said perhaps... rather than I KNOW. I specifically said that i don't know.

Peace!

tammy (and hopefully really going now, lol)

243

Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

by DS211 in

jw
friends

if you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?

for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?

and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?

tec

Holy Hades, TEC: you mean being wrong on interpetation for 2,500 yrs (and counting) doesn't present just a teensie-weensie problem for you?

Hmm. Who said people were supposed to INTERPRET anything?

There is no interpretation of truth. There is simply truth.

Man interpreting something based upon his own reasoning and limited information... is nothing that God has ever asked or told man to do. All man has to do NOW to understand anything written... is listen and look at the One God sent. Even if you just start with what He is written to have said and done.

That's a problem: if the Bible passages are open to interpretative errors and changes in language and human knowledge that happens over time (and YES, there ARE), then what's the point of bothering to claim any Divine inspiration on the front end (i.e. in the writing process), if God cannot be bothered to assure "Divine Interpretation" on the other end?

Divine interpretation... would be from the divine explaining/teaching the meaning to the man doing the reading, right?

Not man interpreting on his own.

How do you know you're not wrong TODAY on ANY interpretation, just like the past believers were?

I'm not interpreting. I cannot. I would not have a clue how to interpret anything, especially in Revelation, on my own. I know this about myself, because if there was ever anyone who was horrible at finding the meaning in poetry, it is me. I HATED poetry in school for that reason, lol.

I cannot say that I have never interpreted. Of course I have... and sometimes I will consider and say, 'I think, I guess, I believe'... but when I have gone with my own reasoning, I have also been wrong. There are things written that I do not understand because I have not heard from the truth, and there are things that I do understand because I have heard them from the truth.

I am not telling you to believe based on who I hear from. But I simply will not take credit for what is not mine. You can simply test the message, against Christ (for those who can), against love, and against what is written (though this is not a perfect means of testing, it is something that everyone can SEE).

And how do you know the interpretation won't change again in the future (like it has many times in the past), after science makes the current interpretation silly or incredible, or believers try to insert modern concepts from science anachronistically (just as Darwin's evolution theory was fought for centuries by believers, but only NOW believers are trying to insert it into Genesis, since the evidence supporting evolution is so overwhelming)?

I am sure that man's interpretation will change again and again. But the truth itself does not change. Even the literal fundamnetalist view of 24 hour creation days is a change from previous interpretations.

Such history of misunderstanding and interpretative FUBARs is a sign of an uninterested deity, at the very least. If any Gods exist, they clearly don't want to have a personal and intimate relationship with individual humans, or a desire to make their will for humanity known in a non-confusing unambiguous manner: the existence of 35k flavors of Xianity alone should confirm that.

Actually, it is the exact opposite. Learning about God via the many books of the bible (or other sources) is impersonal. Knowing God, by knowing His Son, IS personal and intimate. (you dilegently study the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life, yet you refuse to come to ME for life... and... if you know ME, you know my Father as well...)

Absurd and classic excusiology for prophecies: "Don't worry, you just need to give it more time!" Yes, and THAT'S an effective line of reasoning to use on an ex-JW message board, where all participants KNOW the history of failed prophecies (Armageddon dating for 1914, 1975, before the end of the 20th century, etc). As usual, mere mortals take for fall for the prophetic failure, and of course, it's NOT like God or Jesus were wrong: humans simply misunderstood!

Not at all. I have not said just give it more time. I just said the truth... that some things have come and some have not.

So simply writing that someone did something (eg "I just leaped 400 ft in the air, and flew around! I really DID! Honest!!") proves it? TEC, you cannot be THAT gullible and/or dense, can you?

Of course not. Just stating something that is true. I cannot personally prove that to you though, so I will move on from that point.

What a missed opportunity for Jesus to explain that leprosy DOESN'T occur due to sin, but instead is caused by tiny 'animals' that are too small to see, but that settle into the skin and cause the disfiguring skin condition. Sure, they'd laugh, but he'd present compelling evidence of having been sent from Heaven when modern people learned the truth. Remember, THAT is the entire basis of the gift of prophecy, being able to foretell future events. Jesus didn't even have to predict Louis Pasteur by name, but only the concept of diseases caused by micro-organisms (tiny animals; Greek would be 'microzoa').

I was responding to this. I doubt that would have made it into any writing, for the reason that i listed.

At the same time, Christ spoke the truth. We're still behind on the scientific ins and outs, or just not seeing what is before us (yet). Sin does cause the flesh to become ill, to age, to die. That is the sin IN the flesh. (this is not the same as sins we choose to commit) Think about how genetics determine what diseases we might have; what kinds of things are written on our DNA. In a similar way as those codes are in the flesh, sin and death are in the flesh.

So, here's your chance to explain: what do YOU believe "according to their kind" means?

Does it matter what I believe, or rather, interpret? I don't know exactly. I would be guessing. I don't know where on the line that would mean (species perhaps, or family, or whatever... and I CAN use those words, because I know them, whereas someone from long ago who is not aware of those words would have to use a description that they understand. Same with describing some things in Revelation, as was my point with the example about John describing modern or near modern things, with the language ability of a man two thousand years ago)

In any case, the means of creating them according to their kind is not described, so to be dogmatic that it means God created them 'poof' as a finished work, is not justified.

Peace to you,

tammy (who is off to work, so won't be back to respond until probably tomorrow)

99

Survey: Who Here Believe In God/The Bible? Who Are Not Sure? Who Do Not Believe?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i think there are many that still want to believe in a god but just aren't sure.. personally, do you believe in a god?.

are you a "spiritual" person?.

tec

She can. If she agreed to stop insulting us with "my lord told me.....",

That you are insulted and choose to take offense by this, is upon you.

Thank you, UN informed, and you also, Kate.

May you all have peace,

tammy

243

Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

by DS211 in

jw
friends

if you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?

for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?

and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?

tec

Thank you Adamah, for that. And while you and I disagree on... well... a lot, lol... thank you for debating/addressing the argument.

Peace to you,

tammy

243

Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

by DS211 in

jw
friends

if you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?

for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?

and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?

tec

Yeah, TEC's right: that's a clear-cut example of an ad hominem, attacking the other person rather than challenging their argument. It's lazy, and it's a foul in debating (whether I agree with the sentiment or not is besides the point). No need to do that, when TEC offers so little "meat" in her 'arguments' that it's such easy pickin's anyway, LOL!

LOL... um... thanks?

TEC said- On the matter of Genesis 1, the the creation 'days' do not state that they are any specific amount of time. The sun and the moon and the stars created to govern the day and the night are not even formed until 'day four'. These days are time periods that could have spanned thousands, even millions of years. The account also does not say HOW God created animals, sea-life, etc.... only that He did so. It is only some fundamental, literalist views that would state that each day was a set time and that God 'poofed' things into existence.

Unfortunately, we have a 2,500 yr history of an ever-decreasing number of believers who've argued for a literal reading, even past the point when it became too outlandish to try. Here's Ken Ham, a famous fundamentalist Xian who is stillarguing for a literal interpretation, EVEN IN SPITE of the evidence against it, in 2013:

So what?

I mean, really, so what? We have people who argue all sorts of things. The account does not make the statements that some literal fundamentalists SAY that it makes. (which is ironic, since they are supposedly 'literal' fundamentalists) But it is just interpretation.

And John ended up writing a bunch of goofy stuff, as a result, involving nothing even remotely resembling a prophecy of actual events that have occurred...

Actually, some things have not yet occurred. Some things have. But you'd have to have some help in understanding. Revelation is... well... revealed. Not interpreted.

Jesus operated under the incorrect belief of his time period that disease resulted from sin, not germs. That was his schtick: he supposedly healed by forgiving sins (where the standard cure for leprosy performed by the Temple priests and recorded in Leviticus is tantamount to a voodoo ritual performed by a witch doctor in the Caribbean Islands, involving pigeon blood, shaking of rattles, etc.

Nowadays, humans understand that leprosy is caused by a bacteria, and 20 million cases have been CURED with free oral antibiotics, thus improving the lives of millions of people around the World with a treatment that actually works.

What a missed opportunity for Jesus to explain that leprosy DOESN'T occur due to sin, but instead is caused by tiny 'animals' that are too small to see, but that settle into the skin and cause the disfiguring skin condition. Sure, they'd laugh, but he'd present compelling evidence of having been sent from Heaven when modern people learned the truth. Remember, THAT is the entire basis of the gift of prophecy, being able to foretell future events. Jesus didn't even have to predict Louis Pasteur by name, but only the concept of diseases caused by micro-organisms (tiny animals; Greek would be 'microzoa').

Even if Jesus didn't tell HOW to treat leprosy, he would've presented some pretty compelling proof of having known of his Father's creations, due to having a Heavenly perspective that only someone associated with the "Intelligent Designer" would have. Instead, Jesus appears to be just another uninspired man who, although charismatic, believed exactly what everyone else in the region around Palestine believed, since it was the dominant concept of disease: caused by sin, either the patients, or their parents.

And yet, He DID heal. So He knew what He was doing.

(The people might not have been able to understand about germs and genetics and such details. It would have been the ravings of a mad man to them, and they would not have listened. It would have been babble.)

Nonsense: read the Genesis One account again, as God clearly created animals, "according to their kind". That means they were created in finished form, such that he looked at ALL of his creation and declared it as finished, saying it was "very good". He rested, taking a day off on the Sabbath.

Why does it mean that, Adamah? Because I see NO REASON for it TO mean that, other than what your eyes have been trained to see. There is no word 'kind' in biological classifications. On top of that... created according to their kind (assuming it means species or genus or family)... this still does not mean that they started out in their "finished form", like a 'poof' genie in the bottle snapping his fingers.

Peace,

tammy

243

Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

by DS211 in

jw
friends

if you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?

for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?

and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?

tec

P.s. I can't believe Tec still doesnt understand why it is important to tell people how she comes upon her information, namely a voice she hears, that she relies on and then communicates to other people this 'information' as if fact. Considering how many times Tec has been incorrect and how much her story has adjusted (feel free to search her posts history), if there is so eone talking to her, they haven't been to school...

Or provide an example, Snare, giving me an opportunity to defend myself from what you are saying about ME (not my post, just about me). And its not like, in more than 12 000 posts, I have never given credit to my Lord for teaching me. The last thread I started was all about that.

e.g. Things that Tec SAYS as if its FACT..... Ask her how she knows these things....

"On the matter of Genesis 1, the the creation 'days' do not state that they are any specific amount of time. The sun and the moon and the stars created to govern the day and the night are not even formed until 'day four'. These days are time periods that could have spanned thousands, even millions of years. The account also does not say HOW God created animals, sea-life, etc.... only that He did so. It is only some fundamental, literalist views that would state that each day was a set time and that God 'poofed' things into existence."

Just like the governing body, L Ron Hubbard, Joseph Smith..... Tec is special and has been gifted special knowledge we all don't have, well unless we read her posts on an internet forum....

or you can read some science :/

Everything that you bolded, that I posted... is true. If it is not, then please speak as to what is not true, instead of doing the ad hominem just as Cofty did. That is not a rebuke from me to you, Snare. It is just what you both did. If there is something wrong in the above words, please point that out.

Peace,

tammy

243

Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

by DS211 in

jw
friends

if you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?

for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?

and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?

tec

Agreed tammy...christ tells us to continue knocking and it will be given to you. I search for truth. Truth is truth whether you want it to be or not.

Yes.

I am alsovery aware of the amount of energy one might need to create a human.

To create Life, period, but yes.

However i must add that if God saw fit to allow himans to live their life...the. What right does he have to destroy or torment them should they choose not to believe the evidence theyve seen when he allowed them to live.

Or what if a person lives righteously but doesnt attribute this to God? Is he condemned like the wicked?

Well the torment part does not exist. (I assume you mean a burning hell)

Destruction (death), however, does exist. But the 'choosing' of who enters life and who does not has nothing to do with what the wts teaches, and also few churches. No one is prevented from entering the kingdom if they did not believe Christ or God existed.

Those who are in union with Christ, who are his brothers, who are sealed (the 144000 of every tribe of Israel) and the 'great crowd' (those who are in union with Christ from every tribe and nation and language and tongue; true Christians)... these two have become one in Christ, and these ones rule with him in His Kingdom, for the thousand years.

ALSO entering the kingdom, however, are the sheep. See the separation of the sheep and goats parable. These ones are NOT Christians. These are ones who did not know Christ, but enter because of the good that they did to even the least of his brothers, including those among the poor, the imprisoned, the hungry, the thirsty, the homeless. These ones do not know Christ... but are known BY Christ, because of their words and deeds. So these ones can be atheists, agnostics, men and women from other religions, etc; these are the SUBJECTS of the Kingdom.

The goats are not permitted into the kingdom. Their own words and deeds judge them; and the measure that they use is used against them. They are not physically killed, else how would they be weeping and gnashing their teeth (jealousy, anger, regret, bitterness, hate, anger) in the OUTER darkness. Inside the Kingdom is the light; outside the kingdom is darkness (simply because Christ IS the light and He, and all who belong to Him, are IN the Kingdom; and they carry that light/life in themselves)

But both the sheep and the goats are those who are NOT Christian. (though the goats may have thought that they were and so called themselves Christian: "Lord, lord, did we not prophecy in your name..." And He will say to them, "Away from me you evildoers, I never knew you!" )

And of course upon resurrection of the dead after the thousand years... men are judged by their own words and deeds as recorded in their individual books. Some are resurrected to life (those whose names are written in the lamb's book of life), and some are resurrected to judgment (the second death)

Sorry that is so long. I just wanted to be able to help you see. The bottom line is that Christians (and not all who call themselves Christians are christians) are gathered to Christ and rule with him in his kingdom for the thousand years. There is no judgment for them, His blood covers their sins. The subjects of the kingdom are from everyone else, and are judged according to their words/deeds/the measure that THEY used against others. So you can be a loving and forgiving and merciful person (righteous has to do with faith, beleiving and obeying) and not have believed in Christ and God, and be invited into the kingdom that was created for you since the beginning.

My last question. If you knew a child was kidnapped and was going to be molested, tortured, and killed...and you had the knowledge and opportunity to act, would you?

Of course. We are supposed to do that. Care for our fellow man. Man was given this world to govern. (though we hand that over to the adversary when we listen to him over God) Sometimes man listens to God who has taught and guided (now through Christ)... but too often man ignores God and Christ, and does his own thing, to the detriment of others. How many times does man turn a blind eye to something he knows is wrong and hurting others; how many times does that help to CREATE those who hurt others?

Thats whats happening everyday out there. And God has the ability to stop it, yet he doesnt? Thats cruel to me. If god is all knowjng why didnt he stop the snake in the garden? Free will?

It is our choice to listen or not to listen.

The snake in the garden... the adversary (not an actual snake)... had no power except that which Adam gave him. Adam WANTED to eat from that tree; else he would have spoken up. Adam was not decieved.

In any case, just as we are permitted to answer for ourselves when tempted... Adam and Eve were permitted to answer for themselves. Else God is telling them from the start before they had done anything wrong... you are not trustworthy. There is no love in that; that is judging a man guilty who has done nothing wrong. God told them what would happen if they ate; and they still ate. Some men will do anything to blame God for not stopping it; but when it comes right down to it, that is man refusing to take responsibility for himself and his actions.

And yes, man does hurt others by his actions. But it is man doing so, and not God. Something that man does not understand. God does not DO the wrong. God is the one who will give life BACK to those that man has harmed.

Peace,

tammy