Posts by Wonderment

48

No need to know Hebrew and Greek for Bible Translation, according to the Watchtower's Branch Organization Manual revised 2003

by dgp in

i copied this from page 153 of the branch organization manual, effective: december 15, 1977, revised: february 2003. .

it is not necessary for bible translators to know.

by using this file, such scriptures will be ren-.

Wonderment

dgp:

I don't understand why you are disputing something I never said. I never said that translators who worked doing NWT English to foreign languages work was done from the original languages. That was not my intention. I agree with you. The NWT versions into other languages was done mainly from the English version as a base. That is a fact. And that is what you are showing with the Spanish front page of the NWT . However, having done some translation work myself between Hebrew, Greek and Spanish and a few other languages using the NWT, I have also realized it was not a sloppy translation team work. Through the years I have found numerous cases where those teams had a choice of using the equivalent of the original word from the NWT base, and they cleverly chose to use another rendering, just as faithful to the NWT base, but adapted to the target language.

For example, the NWT in English says at John 8:58, "I have been." (rather than "I am"). Well, the NWT in French in some editions read, "I was." When this in turn was done by the Modern Greek edition, they did not use the modern Greek equivalent for "I have been," nor "I was," but rather, "I exist." So, the translations teams are quite flexible, and shows that someone within their translation teams knows what they are doing. This is a doctrinal issue for many, but there are many cases when there was not theology involved and they chose a rendering quite different from the original equivalent in the NWT, but true to the original. Why would they do so, if no one at the WT knows what they are doing, as is often claimed.

I stated: "in some cases," not always. Also, I did not mean to imply that Spanish is so close to Hebrew and Greek and English is not. What I meant, was that English really is more distant to Hebrew and Greek than Spanish is. Spanish is closer to Latin than English. Can we agree with that? And Latin is closer to Greek than English is. Take the definite article. In English is just plain "the." In Greek and Spanish the definite article varies in form depending whether its plural, gender and so forth. Nouns and adjectives are correspondingly inflected as well. Hebrew as well shows more affinity to Spanish than English, such as pronunciation being less variable. Many a times I am amazed how some Spanish versions approximate the Hebrew and Greek better than their English counterparts. This is due in some ways to these languages similarities. There is no denying though, that our Western languages are still remote from those bible languages.

I believe in fairness, and objectivity. The NWT is biased in many places, since it was prepared for JW's, not for mainstream groups. But those other bibles have their biases as well, if not more. None are perfect. However, the common and popular perception that the NWT was done by folks that could not read the originals is plain false.

48

No need to know Hebrew and Greek for Bible Translation, according to the Watchtower's Branch Organization Manual revised 2003

by dgp in

i copied this from page 153 of the branch organization manual, effective: december 15, 1977, revised: february 2003. .

it is not necessary for bible translators to know.

by using this file, such scriptures will be ren-.

Wonderment

Mad Sweeney:

"While the original New World Translation was rendered from the ancient biblical languages , all editions in different contemporary languages never were.

Also, the part above in bold is incorrect. There was nobody on the original NWT committee who knew the ancient Biblical languages."

That is NOT totally correct. Some in the NWT Committee had more than a working knowledge of Hebrew and Greek. All it takes to disprove the common assumption that the NWT was incompetent to do translation work is to "get our hands dirty" and go straight to the Hebrew and Greek, and the more we learn, the more we'll see that someone did have sufficient knowledge to do it. I don't believe those common claims, because I have done myself some digging in the guts of the NWT itself.

Ray Franz, with whom I spoke personally with, told me he was miffed about evangelicals taking his footnote on one of his books and concluding Fred had zero knowledge, and that their motives were inappropiate. He personally was confident that Fred was knowledgeable enough to produce a "creditable" translation. Those were his words. Then he told me of Fred Franz spending hours with a WT Hebrew translator (a female) native in Israel who was surprised at Fred's depth in the Hebrew department. She was able to help her with some translation issues, even though she was experienced translating WT publications from Hebrew to English. Ray himself has told quite a few people that Fred was always able to help him with the Hebrew and Greek difficulties he encountered while preparing Aid to Bible Understanding. Guess what: Ray was no dummy himself. He is an excellent and careful writer who relied on Fred Franz superior knowledge in the language dpt. Ray said he was "unusually disciplined in the language department."

A few scholars who teach Greek use the Kingdom Interlinear in their colleges with their students, and have stated that the KIT is the best interlinear on the market. Guess who worked on the KIT? Ray told me that it was Freddy. Yes, Freddy. And think about this:

E. J. Goodspeed who was quoted by the WTS stating that ‘the NWT exhibits sound serious learning, as he could testify,' and said the "NWT was a scholarly work," was pressured by many evangelicals to come out and condemn the NWT. He never condemned the Greek NT. The only thing negative they were able to get came from an ex-Bethelite, about the grammar of the Hebrew-English portion was "regrettable (in the sense of un-English)." But he translated the Greek NT, not the Hebrew OT. Goodspeed added that 'evidently you WT translators are good scholars.’ BTW, George Gangas spoke Greek, something many trained bible scholars cannot do. Yes, I know that his Greek was Modern not Koine, but it is not that difficult to adapt to their differences.

Frankly, I am puzzled that so many ex-Witnesses fall prey in readily believing the mostly "evangelical" attacks on the NWT without doing deep research themselves.

Also, the WT publication saying that translators need not know Hebrew and English to do translation work must be taken within their context. I have checked the NWT in various languages, and I have seen many cases where the translators didn't just translate from the English carelessly, but went right into the Hebrew and Greek for the translation. They did not use a straight translation from the English. Their translation teams are quite impressive. I know so. Spanish in some cases is closer to Hebrew and Greek and when that is the case, the translation teams cleverly went with the original language instead of the English base.This may sound strange, but I think the WT is more careful with bible translation than with other publications.

So please, let us not be parroting questionable "evangelical" perceptions here for the sake of WT organizational failures.

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

Thank you guys for the McGrath and Dunn's references. Hopefully, I will check them out.

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

still thinking: No, I have not seen any e-mail from you.

I want to add that by quoting a source about the masculine, neuter gender issue, I am not implying that God and Jesus are like MEN where male sex organs are present. That would be absurd.

However, the Bible was written by humans, though inspired by God, in a way we could understand things. The Bible itself shows a masculine-centered tendency. Thus, it is not unusual to depict God and Jesus as if they were masculine. But we all know they are spirits, not likely to be carrying around male genitals. What I find odd, is that while the NT speaks of God and Jesus in masculine terms, popular bible versions often change the neuter gender references of the spirit for masculine ones. The NWT generally reflects the Greek better in this matter. Why is that?

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

godrulz: "WT has quoted master Greek scholar A.T. Robertson (and misquoted him). If you would check out his thoughts, you would find full defense for Jn. 1:1 God vs a god; personal pronouns and the Spirit, etc"

A.T. Robertson was a brilliant scholar, but a Baptist. Greek grammar alone cannot be used to to show the correctness of the traditional rendering of John 1:1. Other scholars disagree with him on a good number of issues, both grammatical and doctrinal-wise.

Whether we were JWs or Baptists, we are all influenced by what others say. Again, caution is advised. Robertson is not a god. He was a human with all the limitations of humankind. I think it is far more important that a more knowledgeable person than he, Jesus Christ, wanted us to know that ‘the Father was greater than he was.’ And after resurrection, he still went around talking about his Father being ‘his God,’ and ‘the God of everyone else.’ (Jn 20:17) When he went to heaven, he felt no disconfort whatsoever telling the world about ‘his God.’ (Rev. 3:12) Why should we? For some reason, he did not say the same thing about the holy spirit.

I think Jesus has far greater credentials than the late A.T. Robertson. I love the simple statements of truth of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the one I look up to.

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

godrulz:

That site you cited for BeDuhn's lack of credibility is based on bias: their intent is to debase anyone who says just one favorable comment of the NWT. That is not a good source. BeDuhn has the credentials. It is sad that some go so low to smear his reputation, just to show the "incompetence" of the NWT. It goes like this: If any scholar says anything positive about the NWT, a host of emotionally charged individuals will jump on their case, and try to prove them wrong by claiming that "the majority of scholars" condemn the NWT, and so on. The assumption is that the majority is on the side of mainstream religion, so it must be truth, and anyone reading the NWT must be on the wrong side.

Yet, the Bible says that "the whole world lies in the power of the wicked one." (1 Jn 5:19) And that Satan is "the ruler of this world." (Jn 12:31) Satan is the "god of this world." (2 Cor 4:4)

Now, can anyone here be so certain that Satan has no control over mainstream religion? Thus, caution is advised.

I analyze both camps, and I find truth and falsehood on both camps. Thus, everything has to be compared with Scripture, and not with what the majority claim. The religious majority in Jesus' day were off the mark. Could the same thing be happening here? Be careful.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket. We can learn from anyone representing different views. We got to take it case by case, placing greater emphasis on simple bible statements, not human philosophy. Don't sweat the details, because we all lack complete knowledge. There is not one single source of truth, other than God and Christ. Can we live by that?

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

godrulz:

Says scholar Jason B. BeDuhn (B.A.; M.T.S.; Ph.D) on the subject
of personal pronouns:

“Now it turns out that both ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ Greek nouns can be used
for impersonal things as well as persons. But ‘neuter’ nouns are used only for
impersonal things, such as objects, animals, forces, abstract principles, and so on.
The same holds true for ‘masculine,’ ‘feminine,’ and ‘neuter’ pronouns. […] But
even though the ‘personal’ category is larger in Greek than in English, the ‘Holy
Spirit’ is referred to by a ‘neuter’ noun in Greek. Consequently, it is never spoken
of with personal pronouns in Greek. It is a ‘which,’ not a ‘who.’
It is an ‘it,’ not a ‘he.’” (Truth in Translation, Accuracy and Bias in
English Translations of the New Testament, p. 140)

BTW, The holy spirit is generally spoken of in the neuter gender, except when
it is personified, for ex. as a "Helper." Otherwise, the above applies. The Father and
Son are generally referred to in the masculine gender in the Greek Text. I hope you
take the time, as I have, going over occurrences of holy spirit in Scripture,
and you will see that Dr. BeDuhn is right on. Again, check Mt. 28:19 in the
Greek Text for a start. Can you do that, before accusing others of ignorance?

And John 4:24 you quote, Yes, the spirit is in the neuter gender, but "the God"
being a spirit is in the masculine gender. This agrees with the statements above,
does not contradict it. Is is not odd that just about everytime God and Christ
are mentioned, are in the masculine gender, and the spirit when mentioned next
to them are always in the neuter gender. Take Romans 1:1-4, where God and
Christ are found in the masculine gender. The spirit in neuter.

And what is the point of Jesus sending his disciples to ‘baptize people in the
name of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit, when only the spirit is in
neuter gender? The word in the "name" is also in the neuter gender. The word
"name" is impersonal. Does not that weaken the trinitarian link?

Dr. BeDuhn has a full chapter in his book dealing with the holy spirit. I suggest
you read it before you accuse him too of Greek ignorance, because his findings
may conflict with your wishful thinking.

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

godrulz:

I see u provided 10 paragraphs, but not ONE scripture which proves the Trinity.

You mentioned John 1:1, how does that prove a trinity, when no holy spirit is mentioned. Your conclusion that "was" shows that Jesus was eternal does not hold up under one look at a Greek concordance. "Was" is used of other humans and things. After all, the heavens and earth ‘were’ created in the beginning. The earth was without form... (Ge 1:2, LXX) The sea "was" no more. (Re 21:1) Jesus disciples are with him from the beginning. (All forms of eimi) A Greek concordance will yield dozens of samples which show "was" is not a unique term used of Jesus alone.

There is a difference between saying "the Word became flesh" (Jn 1:14) and "incarnation." The first term is biblical. The second is foreign to the NT. I want to stick to bible terms as they are given to us. That is why I stick to "Son of God," rather than "God the Son."

Matthew 28:20 in my bible version does not say that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are 3 persons, nor that they are one entity. And when I go to the Greek text, I find the Father and Son in masculine gender, but holy spirit in NEUTER gender. Why?

You mentioned Ray Franz looking up to Christendom's reference works as fine works. But he never was able to make sense of the Trinity. All this "cumulative evidence", you speak of, when examined carefully, fall down like a stack of dominoes, one by one.

We can throw hundreds of nuts and bolts in a big bin, and shake them all we could, at the end, we won't obtain milk from it. Well, if we try hard enough, we may lucky to find adulterated milk.

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

godrulz:

Since you talk a lot, and feel so sure that Christ is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and since I avoid convoluted reasonings, just tell me ONE scripture that clearly says that God the Father, the Son and holy spirit are 3 persons with equal power and status.

Please don't quote me the "I am" sayings which does not prove your point. I am a sucker for simplicity. Just tell me ONE scripture that says everything you claim all over this site. If the Trinity is a bible teaching, it should not be difficult for you to share your zesty enthusiasm with ONE scripture. Please, because I can't find it in my bible. Am I missing some pages? Help!

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.