sd-7

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Posts by sd-7

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  95

  For those who researched 607...

  by AwSnap in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  did you use wt dates as well as things found from a secular perspective?

  if a witness was researching the 607 dates strictly from watchtower info, would it still become clear they are wrong?

  or does the wtbs *make* the dates add up...?

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  sd-7

  There was a great YouTube video that shows how, using the Watchtower CD-ROM, you can calculate the lengths of the Babylonian kings' reigns, starting from 539 B.C. Just type in "the last monarch of the Babylonian empire", something like that, and go from there. Ignoring the dates the Society gives and adding up the lengths of the reigns proves it.

  The Bible says Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in his 18th year, if I recall correctly. Evil-merodach, Neriglissar, Labashi-marduk, Nabonidus, whatever the order is, just add up the years mentioned by the Society. Nebuchadnezzar reigned 43 years, etc., etc. 587 becomes inescapable then, short of assuming there was some mystery king who ruled an extra 20 years that there is no historical data to support.

  Either way, even if 1914 were legit, at the time, JWs were teaching that Jesus' invisible presence started 40 years earlier (in 1874) anyway (and this was an undeniable, established FACT, something they were very dogmatic about in the old literature)--and they continued teaching that for years after 1919. The other factor here is bias--no scholar, historian, or religious person(s) apart from JWs have anything at stake over this 607 vs. 587 issue. Given how JWs believe what they want to believe, I'm not inclined to think that they're right about that date, and certainly not right about its relevance.

  Hope that helps a little.

  SD-7
• 

  The Finished Mystery's unscriptural statements #1

  by sd-7 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in just the first 30 pages or so, apart from the near worship of russell, i found four significant points.

  to preface that, i'd like to add the mention of russell's words in the new 'bearing thorough witness' book, 'we wish no homage for our writings'.

  "pastor russell was a humble man.

• 

  sd-7

  In just the first 30 pages or so, apart from the near worship of Russell, I found four significant points. To preface that, I'd like to add the mention of Russell's words in the new 'Bearing Thorough Witness' book, 'we wish no homage for our writings'. "Pastor Russell was a humble man. Great men usually are," The Finished Mystery says. Interesting. Conveniently, in the new book, he is referred to as 'Brother' Russell, not 'Pastor' Russell, as he was referred to back then. Despite the fact that 'Brother' Russell would be summarily DF'd for probably 90% of his beliefs.

  Moving on...notes on The Finished Mystery

  1.) Page 23: Paul was intended to replace Judas (Iscariot) as an apostle. This is a particularly incredible statement to make, as Acts chapter 1 clearly shows that it was Matthias who replaced Judas as an apostle, not Paul. This is an error that can't possibly be explained by any logic I can think of. It is such a simple point. How can anyone miss it? It's right there! Remember, though, that the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah's visible organization in mind....

  2.) Page 26: Reward for loyalty is to be able to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and bad. Uh...nowhere in the Bible does it say that anyone would ever be able to eat from that tree again. Only the tree of life is what faithful ones will eat from. This is an invention of somebody's own mind.

  3.) Page 27: Third heaven = new heavens & new earth. Well, nowadays, that ain't the case. When I was studying the Mormons, I checked up onthe JW understanding of this issue. The article I found stated that the "third heaven" was actually a vision Paul had of the "spiritual paradise", the modern-day Christian congregation. While that seems completely implausible, as Paul couldn't possibly have heard words that he couldn't ever repeat amongst JWs--especially since supposedly they teach the same things he did, minus having revelations from God--it's still vastly different understanding than was held in 1917.

  4.) Page 27--Notable point: 40,000 Christians were martyred in the first century. This creates some serious problems for the 144,000 doctrine. The two class system the JWs have was notably absent in Paul's discussion of the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15. If there were any in the congregation who had an earthly hope, I should think Paul would've mentioned it there. Instead, he says that "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom." If everyone back then was anointed, or even most Christians back then, 40,000 were killed. 40,000. Clearly that was not the majority of the Christian population, or else its survival would have been unlikely. Math: 144,000-40,000 = 104,000. If 10,000 were anointed in our time, that leaves 94,000 seats open. We know that those 40,000 Christians could not have made up all who were anointed. But we've got 94,000 seats unfilled from that time, through 1,800 years, until now. It's time to surrender that 144,000 concept and just accept that it's probably a figurative number; even by JW logic, 144,000 is 12 X 12,000, and it would therefore (evidently!!!) symbolize a perfect, complete number of Israelites who were sealed.

  The Finished Mystery also mentions 144,000 Christians being killed in Egypt, albeit in the 3rd century. At the time The Finished Mystery was written, obviously this was not considered the 'apostate era' as it is now. Ironically the same apostate era the Bible canon itself came from, by the way.

  So...if I'm Jesus (excusing the unnecessary risk of blasphemy), and I read this book, out of all the religious books out there and all the groups making them, and I examine its teachings that are blatantly contrary to scripture, do I then decide to appoint the guys who wrote The Finished Mystery over my belongings? Well, is it reasonable to think he'd let them watch his stuff until he comes back?

  There is no plausible defense for this kind of material. This isn't an 'apostate' book. It was written by the people who headed up "God's organization". It's a Watchtower Society publication. If any other religion wrote this kind of thing, the Society would be blasting them for keeping people in darkness spiritually. Well, I think it's clear. Why is it that no one is willing to examine the FACTS as contained in the Society's own literature? Well, it's obvious why. "Until they become conscious they can never rebel, and until they rebel they can never become conscious."--George Orwell, "1984".

  SD-7
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  6

  Just downloaded "The Finished Mystery"

  by sd-7 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ...and wow.

  i read the first page of the publisher's preface, and...my gosh, how in the heck did anyone feel this was worth going to jail over?

  how is it possible that everyone who read this book of the "clergy of christendom" didn't just laugh in rutherford's face and call him a nutcase and just move on?

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  sd-7

  Jamie--I figured that'd be their reaction. I find it ironic that they place these outdated, basically false books in what is called the "Library" in the Kingdom Hall, yet if anyone actually wants to READ the books in the Library, they get nervous! Whose library is it, exactly? Or is it a strange trophy case or something? Imagine if you got kicked out of the library for reading books! Go figure.

  I want to read The Finished Mystery because (1) it was the book that got Rutherford imprisoned and is often referred to as being significant for that reason. (2) It is, as far as I know, the last major publication before Jesus' inspection of the "faithful slave". Knowing just how riddled with unscriptural things the book is, firsthand, would serve my purposes well. I'm going to post again on what I've found in just the first 30 pages. Unbelievable.

  I just skim the new WT stuff, for the most part, but this is important enough to read a little more carefully. It's part of my information-gathering process. I may be leaving or possibly confronted by the Thought Police soon. In order to keep my sanity, I need to absorb as much data to counter the phobia indoctrination as possible. This particular work of art is part of that.

  SD-7
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  6

  Just downloaded "The Finished Mystery"

  by sd-7 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ...and wow.

  i read the first page of the publisher's preface, and...my gosh, how in the heck did anyone feel this was worth going to jail over?

  how is it possible that everyone who read this book of the "clergy of christendom" didn't just laugh in rutherford's face and call him a nutcase and just move on?

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  sd-7

  ...and wow. I read the first page of the Publisher's Preface, and...my gosh, how in the heck did anyone feel this was worth going to jail over? How is it possible that everyone who read this book of the "clergy of Christendom" didn't just laugh in Rutherford's face and call him a nutcase and just move on? I can't imagine anyone on earth taking this book seriously. The first page is all but Russell-worship! Grossly incorrect doctrine and even at this early stage of the game, they're already quoting previous Watchtower articles. I find that to be just a little comical and just a little arrogant.

  It is simply impossible to believe that Jesus Christ looked at all Christians on earth, read this book, and selected Rutherford & Co. to handle his earthly affairs. To even suggest as much is to call Jesus Christ a psychopath and a fool. I understand that under the cult identity I might've excused it all as the 'light not being bright enough back then', except that I never paused to consider the implications of that. "Captives of a Concept" has been a real eye-opener in regards to these issues. I thought I understood reality before, but wow. That book is mighty impressive. Check it out. Had some good suggestions for finding old WT books online.

  Anyone else read part of 'The Finished Mystery' and find themselves totally creeped out?

  SD-7
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  58

  March 15, 2010 Watchtower -- "One Flock, One Shepherd"

  by sd-7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  march 15, 2010 watchtower, p. 27, par.

  16 ("one flock, one shepherd"):.

  "paul also helps us to understand that those with an earthly hope do not partake of the memorial emblems.

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  sd-7

  March 15, 2010 Watchtower, p. 27, par. 16 ("One Flock, One Shepherd"):

  "Paul also helps us to understand that those with an earthly hope do not partake of the Memorial emblems. [Wow, putting words in Paul's mouth...] He said to anointed Christians [although he just thought of them as plain old Christians]: "For as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives." (1 Cor. 11:26) When does the Lord 'arrive'? When he comes to take the last of his anointed bride class to their heavenly home. (John 14:2, 3) Clearly, the annual observance of the Lord's Evening Meal is not to continue endlessly...If, though, those who will live forever on earth were entitled to partake of the emblems, then this Memorial meal would need to continue forever."

  Uh, excuse me?! Did they not just quote the Bible as clearly saying the Lord's Evening Meal would be done "until the Lord arrives"? So what possible basis would there be for saying that under ANY circumstances, the Memorial would have to continue forever? We won't need to proclaim the death of the Lord once he has arrived! What would be the logic on this, exactly? Even in my cult identity, I can't figure it out. Maybe it's just a lame excuse for continuing to withhold the bread and wine from the 'other sheep' after having already established in this same article that they symbolically represent "the twelve tribes of Israel". I guess it was the only possible way to dodge the clear implication that if the 'other sheep' deserve that designation, there is no logical reason that they're not part of the "Israel of God" and thus worthy of partaking. What part of "one flock, one shepherd" did they not understand? Worse yet, are they therefore suggesting that Jesus never really 'arrives' for the 'other sheep', but only for THEM? That's an even bolder implication than any of the others. That's just disturbing.

  I don't know if I can even put into words the absurdity of this statement. Who sat down, wrote this, read it and decided it was a good idea to hit 'Print' and allow this to be read to 7,000,000 people? (sigh) It's driving me crazy. I mean, we know the answer to that question, but...geez, people, at least give the other sheep SOMETHING other than the carrot of paradise earth to hold onto. I mean, it's reached a point where they really need to let the 'other sheep' partake. The saddest thing that comes of all this? If or when they finally allow that, the 'other sheep' will be crying tears of joy and be eternally grateful to the SLAVE CLASS for permitting them to have what JESUS, the MASTER, freely offered them from the beginning.

  SD-7
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  94

  Jephthah's Daughter

  by cantleave in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

  the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

  how could they visit her if she was killed?.

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  sd-7

  This comes as a shock to me. You're joking, right? Come on. Jephthah KILLED his daughter? I know it says 'burnt offering', but...BURNT burnt offering? Not like a symbolic burnt offering? Holy crap! I'll have to reexamine this one.

  It's very true that (1) it doesn't seem logical for Jephthah to be that worked up if she's just going to be a nun or something; can't he just have another kid if he's desperate for an heir? A man who can do battle can probably have a wife or three and kids, right? (2) There is no indication that there is a priesthood or any special worship arrangement going on at this time in Israel. So where could she have gone?

  Wow...the more you forget about your cult training, the creepier the Bible gets...

  SD-7
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  30

  Why should God need a human organisation on earth?

  by Dold Agenda in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  if i should ask this to a relative jw.... - why should god need a human organisation on earth anyway?.

  what answer will i get?

  any scripts that they probably will show up to support this thinking?.

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  sd-7

  Mark 9:38-41: "John said to him: 'Teacher, we saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us.' But Jesus said: 'Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name that will quickly be able to revile me; for he that is not against us is for us. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink on the ground that you belong to Christ, I truly tell you, he will by no means lose his reward.' "

  Jesus here had a clear opportunity to put his foot down in support of an organization where people were in lock-step with him and his disciples. Instead, he makes a statement that is clearly against organization. All that mattered was that this man belonged to Christ, not what group he was with.

  We might add that, given the lack of ability to travel, it is unlikely that a governing body could have maintained much real control over the congregations in the first century. There were obviously many different personal beliefs being held in the congregations, but such personal views were not generally seen as a problem so long as the basic truth--Jesus died for us as was raised to life, faith in him means salvation, there will be a resurrection, etc.--was upheld. To suggest that men were needed to rein in Christ's congregation when holy spirit was so clearly active amongst them is to deify the concept of organization. To make it at the very least equal to Christ and probably equal to God. Read enough Watchtower articles and this becomes clear.

  God has worked through individuals--in fact, organizations in the Bible generally became very corrupt. Think of the Israelite kings, sitting on Jehovah's throne, supposedly. Samuel, an individual, as opposed to Eli's sons, who had prominent positions in Jehovah's organization yet were grossly immoral and greedy. Elijah, an individual, facing the organization which had turned to false worship. Gideon, also an individual, but there was obviously no organization for him to turn to because everyone else was worshipping idols. Can we even name a prophet who was bound to an organization? Most of them operated as rogue elements in an organization that shunned worship of God and at times demanded the loyalty of everyone around them, sometimes thinking they were doing the right thing.

  Many of the Bible's stories are of those operating either outside of an organization or inside an organization, trying to shake things up and get people to serve God the right way. So no, God doesn't need an organization on earth.

  SD-7
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  5

  The "Other Sheep" & 144,000 & other Revelation thoughts

  by sd-7 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  revelation 5:9, 10, which speaks of people from all nations being made a kingdom and priests, ruling "over the earth"?

  realizing that if the "other sheep" are gentiles, i would therefore need to find some explanation for this scripture.

  for me, i find a need to understand what this 144,000 concept means in connection with it all.. well, i spent some time yesterday reading scriptures and pondering it.

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  sd-7

  Well, I had considered that possibility. I thought it better to "wait on Jehovah" rather than voice any concerns about that, though...

  SD-7
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  5

  The "Other Sheep" & 144,000 & other Revelation thoughts

  by sd-7 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  revelation 5:9, 10, which speaks of people from all nations being made a kingdom and priests, ruling "over the earth"?

  realizing that if the "other sheep" are gentiles, i would therefore need to find some explanation for this scripture.

  for me, i find a need to understand what this 144,000 concept means in connection with it all.. well, i spent some time yesterday reading scriptures and pondering it.

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  sd-7

  Revelation 5:9, 10, which speaks of people from all nations being made a kingdom and priests, ruling "over the earth"? Realizing that if the "other sheep" are Gentiles, I would therefore need to find some explanation for this scripture. For me, I find a need to understand what this 144,000 concept means in connection with it all.

  Well, I spent some time yesterday reading scriptures and pondering it. So...the 144,000 are spoken of as being from "the sons of Israel". They stand with the Lamb on Mount Zion, they're undefiled, can master a song that no one else can master, follow the Lamb wherever he goes, and are bought as firstfruits from the earth.

  Revelation 20:4, 5 mentions those who partake in the first resurrection, who rule as kings for a thousand years. The curious thing about this scripture is that it does not mention a specific number. It only mentions "the souls of those executed...for bearing witness to Jesus". Obviously not all 144,000 people were necessarily executed--certainly not if we assumed the Society was right. It seems like a tough subject.

  But then, New Jerusalem is referred to as "coming down out of heaven" in Revelation 21. Also in Revelation 21, "kings of the nations" bring their glory into this New Jerusalem. Is it logical to conclude, then, that a heavenly rulership would then be followed by some sort of direct interaction with man on earth, or that perhaps earth would be totally transformed into a place as awesome as heaven itself?

  Clearly, the "great crowd" is rendering sacred service in God's "temple". Since God no longer has a temple on earth, isn't it reasonable to conclude that the great crowd is in heaven? It is also clear that Armageddon would not kill all mankind who didn't agree with some specific religious organization, as even after the thousand years, Satan goes out to mislead "the nations". By JW logic, at least, presumably there would only be one nation, right? It's also clear that the "dead" who are judged after Satan is thrown into the lake of fire are not merely "spiritually dead", as the sea, Death and Hades would not logically be giving up spiritually dead people, but rather LITERALLY dead people. But JWs have sent these people back in time and essentially, inevitably, placed them in a category amongst the first resurrection! But this second resurrection is clearly explained--"the rest of the dead did not come to life until after the thousand years had ended."

  Well, primarily I'm curious--is there any other Bible translation apart from the NWT that says at Rev. 5:9, 10 that the people from all nations would be ruling "over the earth" instead of "on the earth"? I've not found any translations that say "over" apart from NWT. The Greek term that's used there, according to James Allen Hewett's book on Greek New Testament grammar (which the Society has quoted from), means "on", and they make no mention of "over" as being a possible meaning. Strong's Dictionary says "on", "on behalf of", and does have "over" as a possibility, but...does it apply in this case? Or did the Society render it as "over" to support their doctrine?

  Curious to hear your thoughts. Got a meeting tonight. If I'm fortunate, maybe the Thought Police will be arresting me soon. I'm a little scared and a little sad that no one will believe me, but...no one believed Galileo. Doesn't change the facts, though--he was right. Take care.

  SD-7
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  4

  The "Other Sheep"

  by sd-7 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is a thought i'd pondered before, and i accidentally discovered it while going over the daily text with my wife--i wasn't paying attention at all to the "disobedience is common in satan's world, everybody but jws is mentally diseased, etc., etc.

  ", so...that's how i found it.. john 10:16: "and i have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also i must bring...and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

  " we can add significantly that jesus said he was only sent to "the lost sheep of the house of israel".

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  sd-7

  6 namely, that people of the nations should be joint heirs and fellow members of the body and partakers with us of the promise in union with Christ Jesus through the good news. 7 I became a minister of this according to the free gift of the undeserved kindness of God that was given me according to the way his power operates.

  From this it seems pretty clear that Paul is explaining that the "other sheep" are people of the nations, as this is where the two groups are made one under Christ--one flock, one shepherd. This seems to make Revelation 7 clearer--it makes more sense that the 144,000 Israelites are contrasted with an unnumbered great crowd of all nations--if the 144,000 were from all nations too, the distinction would be rendered irrelevant. Of course, that leaves the issue of Revelation 5:9, 10, which speaks of people from all nations being made kings to rule over the earth--though the original Greek may also be rendered "on the earth", I believe. Still, I think the notion of an underclass of 'other sheep' is simply false. Through Christ it is literal Israelites united with Gentiles that makes two groups into one.

  Why is the Society using this distinction to shove millions out of a close personal relationship with Christ, preventing them from partaking of his blood (which they paradoxically wash their robes in in Revelation 7), claiming that they can only be friends with Christ "in principle" (see this week's Watchtower study), saying that they're not accepted as God's sons but only as his friends (also a paradox because they can be friends with Christ only "in principle" but somehow can be friends with God--I guess it's all a matter of whichever term is convenient to the WT writers at the time)? Creating doctrine out of thin air creates these kinds of problems with it. I'm done here.

  SD-7