LUHE: Well, if you don't think Russia is acting against the interest of the US by it's many actions against the US political system, EU/NATO allies and violations of human rights you are right in thinking that Russia and the US should be friends...
Posts by bohm
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491What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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What did President Trump say about Sweden?
by kpop inthis you will never see on the mainstream media.
before you comment watch the whole video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqaigeqxqgi.
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bohm
Qcmbr: I should probably just stay away from this one but I can't help myself.
What is missing from this discussion is a focus on the big picture.
The big picture question is: What are the consequences of taking in X refugees?
That leads to subquestion: How do we quantify these changes (change in BNP, change in crime, change in incidences of terrorism, etc.).
I agree with the right-wing media that there are reasons to raise the big question about consequence and take it seriously. The question is often brushed aside by left-wing media because it is uncomfortable. The right wing media is calling out that as being about political correctness, failure to look reality in its eye, etc. etc. I agree with that critique.
My annoyance is that the right-wing media raises the question, but then seem to completely fail to care about actually answering it. Rather we go to specific cases, like a riot, a murder, etc. etc.
You can't answer questions about consequences by looking at specific instances of crime... in fact that will only create fear due to well-known psychological biases in all humans. When that is brought up the right-wing media goes bananas in an emotional response (you are blinded, look at the riots! look at the burned out car! why are you making excuses? etc. etc.) without understanding the irony.
What we can learn from Sweden is what happens if a small country takes in a truly ridiculous amount of refugees.The numbers is about 110'000 for Sweden (population 9.6M) and 16'000 for the US (population 320M).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War
What has happened in Sweden is, as far as I can tell, a slight increase in some forms of crime, in particular, the gang crime currently affecting Malmoe in southern Sweden, however, the correlation is not very strong and the total effect is not all that big -- not denying it isn't there but I would like to see the numbers.
This experience can be contrasted with the experience of e.g. Denmark, who took in 19'000 Syrian refugees (population 5.6M) and nothing of importance happened. This is about 67 times as many refugees than the US per capita if I did the math right.
So another way to frame the situation is like this:
- If you take in 67 times as many refugees as the US is currently taking just about nothing happens.
- If you take in about 230 times as many refugees per capita than the US something along the lines of a rise in some forms of crime happens, but the statistical evidence is not that well understood.
This is not to say that I think anyone should replicate the Swedish model (I certainly don't), but I think it would be very good to have a discussion about the impact based on numbers and studies.
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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bohm
LUHE:
You wrote that the Cold war ended 25 years ago, and I gave you a list of examples of Russian acting aggressively on in opposition to US/EU interests, thereby countering the idea (which I have seen several times) that this is about the cold war.
Can we agree that Russia is currently acting in opposition to US/EU interests and are engaging in actions that are very damaging to the affected countries?
Next your claim:
But the USA not being friends with Putin doesn't make a blind bit of difference - Putin acts the way does regardless.
That's interesting. Can you show me what you are basing that assessment of the impact of the sanctions on? (WHO, NATO, academia, thinktank, etc.; please PLEASE don't tell me you made it up).
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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bohm
freemindfade:
can you explain that further? Obama, placed sanctions on Russia together with the GOP controlled congress. Regardless of party, everyone seemed to believe that was a good idea at the time given what Russia was doing.
btw, your response, "yes but whatabout...". What do you think is the right thing to do with Russia?
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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bohm
And Trump's ideas are to promote Russia as a friendly 2nd cousin to the United States? - if correct, what's wrong with this?
The Cold War ended 25 years ago.That line has become awfully popular.
What is wrong with bombing civilians in Syria?
What is wrong with invading Crimea and keeping it?
What is wrong with currently shelling civilians deep inside Ukraine?
What is wrong with trying to assassinate the head of state in Montenegro as they sought membership in Nato? What bad has ever come out of an assassination in the Balkans?
What is wrong with giving your thugs in Ukraine a BUK missile they use to shoot down MH17?
What is wrong with having your cyber operatives cover up your involvement? what is wrong with messing with the investigation?
What is wrong with having an organized troll factory crapfloat EU social media with agipop?
What is wrong with keeping pro-Kremlin troll and accused rapist Assange afloat?
What is wrong with waging a year-long cyber war on the US election?
What is wrong with hacking computers belonging to two major parties in the US with the intention of disrupting the election?
What is wrong with hacking infrastructure related to the US election? (voting databases)
What is wrong with colluding with right-wing parties across Europe? What bad has ever come out of right-wing extremism on the European continent?
What is wrong with exporting Islamists to ISIS in Syria? Surely this is in everyones best interest
What is wrong with killing a few journalists here and there?
What is wrong with that? Cold war ended 25 years ago...
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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bohm
SBF: Very good clip, watched it last week and forgot about it.
Rationalization can go as follows: Obama called ISIS the enemy of the American people. ISIS has a propaganda channel which employs journalists. Case closed.
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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bohm
Simon:
but do you think it is right?
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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bohm
Re. Trump he:
- Use a general label for "the media" which imply it is telling untrue stories "fake news" (compare to Lugenspress). This label is used by Trump and people near to him to deflect cretique.
- Label the media both his "enemy" and "the enemy of the people"
- Has started collecting money to "fight" the media in an organized manner
These are simply not things a person with respect for democracy does. "enemy of the people" is 100% chekist slogan, I will refer you to the early days of the Russian revolution on that one.
Re. the comparison to Obama: A thing I have noticed is that critique of Trump is nearly never addressed, but rather it is deflected by saying: but whatabout...
Why is that? Have we given up on finding a solid moral grounding on which to evaluate our views on? Interestingly, this tactic is the bread-and-butter of the Russian TV propaganda.
How is this different than when a JW is pointed to difficulties in JW org and he says: Yes, but look at the state of the world's political systems...
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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bohm
freemindfade: I don't see him any more volatile than modern leftists though lol.
So you are saying that far-left SJW type leftist crybabies are ridiculous... and Trump is just about as ridiculous as they are...
I guess I agree with that ;-).
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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-
bohm
Simon: I am really not that biased ;-). Clinton was subject to FBI investigations, and I actually think it was a good thing she got investigated considering what was at stake (I just think the reporting of her investigations were disproportional with what was found). Now Trump and the people around him are being investigated which I also think is a good thing. I don't assume guilt in the case of Trump and I don't think it is proven yet.
I don't think this will be a multi-year thing so we will have to see what comes to light in the coming months, then I guess we can see if the alt or MSM was more accurate.