bohm

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Posts by bohm

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  98

  Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

  by joe134cd in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

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  bohm

  Ruby: According to Hassan, he was never contacted regarding his rates for the piece...

  I am actually questioning the call for statistics to back up his claims of success because it seems unreasonable. According to Hassan he has a high rate of success (but he only counts cases that reach the intervention stage), however what exactly is she asking for?. In order to probably evaluate outcome of his interventions statistically, Hassan would have to get two populations of cult victims, then divide them in two groups (experiment and control), perform his type of intervention on one group and another on the other group and finally evaluate the outcome. This would need to be done with many patients in each groups to get any sort of statistical confidence; obviously an undertaking nobody could be expected to perform.

  Regarding Cathleens experience in the courtroom: I don't know what it takes to be used as an expert witness in the courtroom but more specifically we don't know what she was testifying about exactly... I think it is more direct to look at what she actually accomplished during her PhD and how that relates to cults. So first off her PhD was not about cults as far as I can tell from the title and I can't find any work she has published. If she has really not published anything that is a very bad sign indeed.

  Re. Applewhite: just look at the video where she gives her testimony. Stuart grills her for not having the facts straight and she is given about a month to fix the errors in the report.
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  98

  Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

  by joe134cd in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

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  bohm

  Biblexaminer: Lol.

  The guy who wrote the article, Rick Ross, is like Jesus in that he once got himself in legal trouble and never finished college...

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Alan_Ross
  
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  98

  Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

  by joe134cd in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

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  bohm

  Ruby: Her work was criticized in strong terms by the commission and she was asked to redo parts of her report if memory serves.

  My point is that we have one expert, Cathleen Mann, who says: "Nowhere does Hassan provide a base rate and/or any type or accepted statistical method defining his results...". Okay that might be true, but does Mann herself provide such a rate for her services? (certainly not on her website). Does the author of the article provide such a rate? (nowhere as far as I can tell). Is it then common practice a counselor has to provide such rates?

  It is very hard to see what the actual substance is behind such a claim and to me it just seems like they are trying to drum up controversy without substance.

  Do you think it is fair that a person with absolutely no credentials to speak of (he never finished college) is criticizing Hassan for HIS supposed lack of credentials even though Hassan has actually received professional training?

  
  

  
  

  
  
• 
  98

  Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

  by joe134cd in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

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  bohm

  Ruby:

  I am just trying to get to the bottom of this. I agree Cathleen Mann is recognized as a court expert and according to her linked profile she has worked professionally with mental health issue for years, however it is difficult to assess exactly what being a court expert means in terms of her capacity as an expert. For instance, Monica Applewhite who testified on behalf of the WT during the Australian royal commission is also a recognized court expert, but she didn't exactly strike me as being very competent.

  When Cathleen Mann is quoted in the article as speaking out against Hassans lack of "statistical validation" it is clear she is used because of her scholarly credentials (notice it says she has a PhD and Hassan is criticized for his lack of higher academic training). The issue I am bringing up is to take her own description from the webpage:

  "I have an earned doctorate in psychology with a dissertation on a forensic related topic. "

  That quote raises alarm bells: what school? what topic exactly? Did she do any scientific work relating to cults?

  I have been unable to find any scientific work she carried out during her PhD program and she obtained her PhD from a controversial online campus. That is pretty alarming, as the only thing that substantiates her call for "statistical validation" is her credentials.

  On top of that, if the article criticize Hassan for his methods not being effectively validated, how then about the author of the article (Ross) who has *no* professional training whatsoever and is a known deprogrammed (kidnapping and unlawful imprisonment)? Are THOSE methods statistically validated or considered ethical? Presumably not at all, in which case it all seems pretty hypocritical...

  Where this leaves us is the 400 USD for consulting. This is a lot I agree, and enough for me not to consider his services. But it is a little less per hour than an experienced lawyer and a lot less than a top-end lawyer. How much do other psychologists charge? (I was easily able to find a random psychologist who charged more). Is it unreasonable for Hassan to charge the same amount as other psychologists because he is working with people who need his services? Would that not apply equally well to all people who worked with health?

  If Hassan said he was the *only* person who could help someone in a cult and charged 400 USD/hour there might be a point, but I can't recall hearing that asides him saying he suggests people should talk with professionals about their cult problems (sound advice) and not hire deprogrammers (que author of the article).
• 
  98

  Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

  by joe134cd in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

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  bohm

  Yah okay this just keeps getting worse and worse.

  So they guy who is likely to have written the article is "Rick Alan Ross". From wikipedia:

  Ross faced charges of unlawful imprisonment over a 1991 forcible deprogramming of United Pentecostal Church International member Jason Scott; a jury acquitted him at trial. In 1995, a civil lawsuit filed by Scott resulted in a multimillion-dollar judgement against Ross and his co-defendants. Later, Ross and Scott reached a settlement in which Ross agreed to pay Scott US$5,000 and provide 200 hours of professional services at no charge.
  Ross was the only deprogrammer to work with members of the religious group Branch Davidian prior to the Waco siege; some scholars later criticized his involvement with the siege.

  Okay, so a deprogrammer who was part of the Waco fuckup.

  Since Hassan criticize deprogrammers left and right for unethical practices it is not hard to guess why he might not like Hassan.

  On top of that Rick Ross appears to have absolutely no professional education (his bio list him as never having attended college) which makes it kind of funny he criticize Hassan for his lack of training...

  Regarding the fees this Is Hassans own response:

  As for the accusations, my current fees are not $500 as Ross claims. I charge half that for an hour of counseling and have done so for quite some time. In response to his suggestions that I am unethical in my dealings with clients, I want to assert that I abide by the ethical guidelines of my professional organizations including the American Counseling Association. Every person I have ever worked with has known what I charge in advance and has agreed to it. In recent months, in accordance with the new federal HIPAA guidelines, clients must sign a written contract that discloses all necessary information, if they wish to work with me.

  https://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/pet/rick%20ross%20steve/Steven%20Hassan%20responds%20to%20rick%20ross/Steve%20Hassan's%20Response%20to%20Rick%20Ross's%20Personal%20Attack.htm
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  35

  More money-grubbing: Give us your money even if you can't afford food

  by bohm in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the message would appear to be that jehovah needs money more than that old lady needs food:.

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  bohm

  Nevula: The January study edition. Paragraph 17 is about the woman who gave the two coins in the temple.

  https://www.jw.org/da/publikationer/?contentLanguageFilter=en
  
• 
  98

  Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

  by joe134cd in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

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  bohm

  Okay so what are the facts of the matter?

  1) Steven Hassan charge too much:

  I googled and found a random psychiatrist who charged more than Hassan per hour. I think 400 USD is WAY too much, but it appears to be in line with what other psychiatrists charge, in particular "big name" psychiatrists.

  2) Various allegations about NLP:

  This does not appear to hold water as Hassan many times speak out against NLP

  3) Other professionals speak out against Hassan:

  I think this is the most substantial charge. For instance:

  "Dr. Cathleen Mann, who holds a doctorate in psychology and has been a licensed counselor in the state of Colorado since 1994 points out, "Nowhere does Hassan provide a base rate and/or any type or accepted statistical method defining his results...""

  I think this quote raises some questions. Firstly, it is very vague. Is it really expected that a mental health professional provide such statistical evidence for his or her methods? How is that supposed to be evaluated, exactly? (hundreds of patients with a control group?). That seems to be a nearly impossible standard.

  Secondly, who is Cathleen Mann? She does not mention where her PhD is from on her personal website(!!!), but from her linkedin her PhD is from "Walden University. Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.), Psychology, usually us usually"

  I could not find any scientific work she did in her PhD program. On top of that, Walden University is an online university with a history of controversy. From it's wikipedia page it does not exactly appear to be a powerhouse in the psychology department:

  Not accredited[edit]

  • Walden University’s Ph.D. specializations in Clinical Psychology and Counseling Psychology are not accredited by theAmerican Psychological Association (APA) and have not received designation by the Association of State and Provincial Psychology Boards/National Register (ASPPB/NR), which are requirements for licensure in some states. The M.S. and six other Ph.D. in psychology specializations offered by Walden are not governed by APA.[27]
  • Walden University's Counseling Psychology advanced degrees are also not accredited by the Council for Accreditation of Counseling and Related Educational Programs (CACREP), a specialized accrediting body, which is a requirement for licensure as a counselor in many states. [28]

  
  

  I think the critique of Hassan smells.. it is verging on being false (the hints Hassan engage in or support NLP) and supported by quoting "experts" who has degrees from online universities with a controversial reputation...
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  39

  More Anti Tight Pants Content

  by konceptual99 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  just skimming the latest study wt that has been posted and what did i see...?.

  i wonder what the message is that they want the flock to take from this picture?.

  there is also an article about training younger men to take over responsibilities.

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  bohm

  Ah I read that article, wasn't the title: "You can be smartly dressed as a Jehovah's Witness"?

  oh wait---
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  35

  More money-grubbing: Give us your money even if you can't afford food

  by bohm in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the message would appear to be that jehovah needs money more than that old lady needs food:.

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  bohm

  The message would appear to be that Jehovah needs money more than that old lady needs food:

  
  
• 
  98

  Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

  by joe134cd in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

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  bohm

  I agree 400 USD Per hour is excessive but so what? Where is the Scandal? I am pretty sure hiring dr Phil is expensive as well, but that does not mean you cant read his books and does not have any impact on what he sayes is useful.

  regarding not being a psychiatrist, okay, but has he claimed to be? Is anything he writes harmfull or invalid?