Posts by fodeja

39

Interesting thoughts on the situation.. READ

by Brutus in

jw
friends

hey everyone, .

everybody has called for everything from full scale nuclear assault to a more measured response, against targets ranging from the entire middle east to just the perpetrators.

the only country in which arabs can vote for their leaders is israel, where native born arabs are given citizenship.

fodeja

Anyone who celebrates the attack of innocent civilians deserves the bombs that will be directly dropped on their empty heads. When you see 8,9 year old kids and women yelling and screaming in the streets celebrating this terrosist attack I will not feel sorry for them when women and children are killed when we retaliate for the actions of the 1 or 2% of the population that are terrosist. Those camel eating cowards deserve what they are about to recieve.

I see you editing your messages to even more hate than before, Brutus. And it seemed as if you were calming down.

I'll just try this: I'll think you're just a troll, and go to sleep with that comforting belief.

f.

39

Interesting thoughts on the situation.. READ

by Brutus in

jw
friends

hey everyone, .

everybody has called for everything from full scale nuclear assault to a more measured response, against targets ranging from the entire middle east to just the perpetrators.

the only country in which arabs can vote for their leaders is israel, where native born arabs are given citizenship.

fodeja

SIMON: is there a way to move this thread to the "disagreements" area? I think it may be necessary.

When such support is identified, appropriate measures can be taken. ... The entire death toll of the terrorist attack is 'collateral damage.'

I'm astonished that people on the street (so to speak) are adopting the kind of veiled - and at the same time, loaded - language that is spoken by government officials. What, exactly, is "appropriate measures"? What, exactly, is "collateral damage"? Please be very specific.

Had the Free World not responded to Hitler with violence, think about the type of world we would live in today.

I agree. Did the ends justify all means? Was, say, the bombing of Dresden appropriate? Please research a bit before you answer.

Brutus is very angry.

I understand anger, very much. I don't understand the hate that is surfacing. I'm scared, personally. I think the type of hate that is coming up now is more than just anger, it is primitive, pure evil. It's not better than what drives people to go into a school building and shoot down every living thing in sight.

The time to talk is now obviously over.

Is the time to think over, too?

f.

edited (grammar)

39

Interesting thoughts on the situation.. READ

by Brutus in

jw
friends

hey everyone, .

everybody has called for everything from full scale nuclear assault to a more measured response, against targets ranging from the entire middle east to just the perpetrators.

the only country in which arabs can vote for their leaders is israel, where native born arabs are given citizenship.

fodeja

Whether you like it or not buddy we are going to war in the middle east and many innocent lives will be taken whether you like it or not.

I'm not your "buddy". I wouldn't want to be.

That is a fact of WAR!!!!

I know the facts of war, while you, I presume, don't. People in my family have been killed in war. The facts of war are, in a nutshell, that people kill people because they want to live. All of them die.

If you want to be one of the people to kill: just go ahead. Nobody can stop you. Nobody could stop the terrorists either. Hate finds its way.

f.

39

Interesting thoughts on the situation.. READ

by Brutus in

jw
friends

hey everyone, .

everybody has called for everything from full scale nuclear assault to a more measured response, against targets ranging from the entire middle east to just the perpetrators.

the only country in which arabs can vote for their leaders is israel, where native born arabs are given citizenship.

fodeja

Would you care to articulate your idea of a just response by the U.S.?
As has been pointed out, the arrest of terrorists seems not to have produced the desired result(the cessation of terrorist attacks) as of yet. The scenes of people dancing in the streets seems to indicate a support for terrorist activities.

First of all, people should crack open a world map and understand where that "middle east" is. Then, look at the places *where* people *are* cheering on the streets. Then, think for a second about why people would cheer at the death of innocent persons. As a very long-term measure against terrorism, just try to find out why people develop such an unbelievable hate against a nation, and try to do something against it. That won't silence those calling for retaliation, and it may take a very long time, but is definitely necessary to come to peace some day.

I am open to new ideas if you have anything to offer and I am looking forward to reading your thoughts on the matter.

Where I live, in an insigificant European country, there is a fundamental law in place that basically says that you can only be punished for what you have done. You can't be punished for jumping with joy when your hated mother-in-law has been stabbed by her husband. You can't be punished because your neighbour is dealing drugs. You can't be punished because your father or sister or grandson happens to be a murderer. And so on.

I may be wrong, but I believe this concept is known in the United States, and - please correct me if necessary - it does not only apply to US citizens, but humans in general (the arrest of Russian programmer Sklyarov for something his employer did in Russia that is perfectly legal there seems to indicate otherwise...but I digress).
Short-term: I don't know. Bombing Iraq for weeks and weeks didn't help much, except to drive the occupants out of Kuwait. It does not seem to be a very effective measure against "evil empires" and sometimes helps dictators stay in the saddle (consider Yugoslavia for another example).
So, it may be old-fashioned, but how about, get the perpetrators and punish them? I personally wouldn't even mind them being killed in a little fireworks spectacle, as long as it stays on reasonable scale - apparently it seems to be no problem to reconcile this with US laws. But don't kill people because "they" are "on the other side".

Don't kill the daughter because her father's neighbour is cheering at his mother-in-law's death. Punish the murderer instead.

Just an idea, I know it sounds a little far-fetched.

f.

39

Interesting thoughts on the situation.. READ

by Brutus in

jw
friends

hey everyone, .

everybody has called for everything from full scale nuclear assault to a more measured response, against targets ranging from the entire middle east to just the perpetrators.

the only country in which arabs can vote for their leaders is israel, where native born arabs are given citizenship.

fodeja

Don't you understand that in WAR there are no innocent civilians!! ... Fuck them, They will pay dearly for what they have done to innocent Americans. THERE SHOULD BE NO FUCKING EXCUSE WHATSOEVER FOR WHAT HAS BEEN DONE!!!

I was trying to find words to respond, but failed miserably.

I'm not easily scared, but you succeeded in doing just that. This is the most scaring outburst of pure hate that I have read in a long time from a person living in a democratic, free country.

Just two final questions.

Who is "they"?

And could I be one of them?
f.

p.s.: I'm disgusted, and wondering about what seems like silent approval. Someone says "fuck" and people get upset in a second; someone screams like an ayatollah shouting out a fatwa, wishing death upon people and their families, and nothing happens.

39

Interesting thoughts on the situation.. READ

by Brutus in

jw
friends

hey everyone, .

everybody has called for everything from full scale nuclear assault to a more measured response, against targets ranging from the entire middle east to just the perpetrators.

the only country in which arabs can vote for their leaders is israel, where native born arabs are given citizenship.

fodeja

They don't value human life the way we do

Which, of course, justifies their killing.

You, excuse my language as this time I cannot seem to find better words, arrogant self-righteous bastards have such an easy time talking about the murder of humans, and YOU are disgusted at the terrorists at the same time? You talk about the lives of people you've never seen as if they are expendable, a mere blip on the screen, a figure on a sheet of paper, a price that could easily be paid for the greater good. Now what does that remind me of?

I can't believe this. Who are the "citizens supporting terrorism"? The kids on the streets? Their mothers, passing out candy? Or just their fathers? Will there be smart bomb technology to incinerate the guilty and leave the innocent alive? So far, this hasn't worked.

They must be made to understand that when they cheer mass homicide, they will be shown the other side of it too. ... They need to be shown that rising up in cowardly terrorist acts will only result in tremendous retaliation. Eventually they will get the message, and rise up against their own oppressive leaders.

They will rise up against the people who kill their fathers, mothers, sons and daughters. They will call for retaliation. More bloodshed. A brilliant plan. These people will finally see what democracy can do for them!

f., finally losing his belief in "the free world"

34

Religious Fanatacism

by drahcir yarrum in

jw
friends

if there was ever a blatant display of the dangers of religious fanatacism, this is it.

the hi-jackers of the airliners that crashed today no doubt thought they'd immediately be sitting next to allah this-afternoon.

fodeja

please quote me a Jewish or Christian doctrine or law that calls for the annhilation of an islamic country.

Does it have to be Islamic? When I wrote "learn history" in my last message, I was referring to a history of 2000 years of organised homicide in the very name of the Christian God, directed against *all* sorts of ethnic groups and belief systems. Among others, Islam (even though the Church is *still* holding up the notion that the crusades were a sort of a noble liberation effort, to some extent). If you don't believe that unless I throw some quotes at you, I should better stick to my "learn history!" exclamation.

You originally asked where some Islamic people get their terroristic ideas from. Your point being, if I understand it correctly, that Islam is somehow inherently more violent (or, more suitable for violent fundamentalism) than Christianity. I ask: where did all those Christians get their ideas from?

f.

p.s.: http://shamir.mediamonitors.net/april242001.html

23

ex-JW's : Would you go to war?

by Jim Lad in

jw
friends

my ex-brother in law phoned this morning and asked me how i felt about going to war now that i'm not in the org anymore.

with so many years of being told not to i wonder how many of us still feel that way.

would you be worldly conscientious objectors or would you defend...etc.... i'm not trying to antaganize or be inappropriate.

fodeja

War after all is between GOVERNMENTS and not the people.

I agree. By now, people should have learned that the naive illusion of a "just war" harming only (or even mostly) non-innocent people is just that: a naive illusion. War kills indiscriminately. Bombs don't spare civilians. To begin with, it's usually almost impossible to even name the responsible ones for any nontrivial problem in the real world. Things aren't so simple.
Switching to the fantasy world: if I had lost a loved one in the recent terrorist attacks...and I would know exactly who's responsible...and I had that person in my gunsight...it's hard to claim that I could control myself.
But, going to war? No. Absolutely not, at all personal costs. I used to think otherwise and even went to the army instead of the civil service option, but things have changed.
f.

34

Religious Fanatacism

by drahcir yarrum in

jw
friends

if there was ever a blatant display of the dangers of religious fanatacism, this is it.

the hi-jackers of the airliners that crashed today no doubt thought they'd immediately be sitting next to allah this-afternoon.

fodeja

Your tone with this response puts the poster in the same group as "counter-terrorists".

No, absolutely not. I'm not putting him in that sort of group. I'm pointing out that thinking in such stereotypes is one of the root causes that can lead to such acts. Stereotypes are also one of the necessary conditions of racism.

I've been confronted with stereotypes of all sorts way too much, and seen too many people who were suffering from others' stereotypes. It's hard to stay calm and distanced with that background.

English also isn't my first language (as if that isn't obvious from my style and grammar), so it's quite likely that some things may not sound the way I intended them.

When you call someone stupid or ignorant they aren't going flock to your banner, and I doubt they will try to educated themselves further for your benefit.

You may be right here; I wasn't exactly writing without emotion. TR, I honestly apologise for my tone in my reply to you, which was out of line. Conflicted, thanks for pointing this out.

You ridiculed drahcir twice for his use of profane language, and yet your words drip with cinicism and destain.

Well, yes. Some things upset me more than I'd like them to. You're absolutely right that my reply to TR was not okay. However, I'm not going to hide my cynicism and disdain about certain things, even if that doesn't help people "flocking to my banner". Whenever possible, I prefer cynicism over calling people I've never seen "fucking idiots" - the former being directed mostly against _ideas_ I reject strongly, the latter being just an ordinary personal insult.
f.

34

Religious Fanatacism

by drahcir yarrum in

jw
friends

if there was ever a blatant display of the dangers of religious fanatacism, this is it.

the hi-jackers of the airliners that crashed today no doubt thought they'd immediately be sitting next to allah this-afternoon.

fodeja

I don't recall Christian or Jewish factions that call for the destruction of Islamic countries and people.

Huh?! Learn history!

And do inform yourself about what has been happening to the Palestinians in their enclaves for many years now. This treatment has always been supported by Jewish extremists. Palestinians have been treated like shit for a long time, and some of them are happy to see one of the scapegoats suffer.

Nothing new under the sun, or is there?

Besides, what does this have to do with the issue here? It's not one religion against the other. My point is that people shouldn't jump to conclusions and suspect obscure "muslim fundamentalists" without even the flimsiest evidence so far to support that. I do not doubt for a second that there are muslim extremists interested in blowing the United States to pieces. I'm just sick of sentiments that say it's somehow "typical" of that evil, bad muslim religion. That is simply false, a pure stereotype. Christianity has a long tradition of religiously motivated genocide just as well. Timothy McVeigh wasn't a bearded Muslim either.

Do _you_ know any Muslims, TR, except those burning flags on TV? I do. They're very religious. They're very much against violence. Strange, huh?

f.

p.s.: drahcir, thanks for extending my vocabulary. I didn't know the expression "numbnuts" until now. Not that I had been missing anything, mind you. I am in awe of your reasoning skills.