jr
You are once more trying to say something other than what I,ve brought up in conversation!
You are questioning me as if I brought up the Mosaic Law as something that hadn't applied to N. Israel. This is nothing but a smoke screen.
It clearly did apply, and that is why I said previously that we are all informed that N. Israel is not in the kingdom at this time.
The old Covenant is called such because they were written to N.Israel by God with His finger.... now listen to this very carefully and open your ears very wide ... "ON STONE"!! Again, ON STONE!
This represents the heart of Natural Israel. Jehovah said in
Ezequiel 36:26 I will give YOU,... (the same N. Israel He Has been Identifying and talking about to all along, If you try to insert spiritual Israel here it doesent make sense. They didnt have a heart of stone or were removed from any land that they may recive a new heart and be brought back to their OWN LAND)... continuing verse 26 says: a NEW heart and put a new spirit within YOU, and I will remove the heart of Stone from YOUR flesh and give YOU a heart of flesh.
Verse28: And YOU will live in the land that I gave to YOUR forefathers
1. Where in Ezeq. does it say that Spiritual Israel had a heart of stone and lost the land given to their forefathers?
2. Where do you see in Ezeq. a) that Spiritual Israel was in that Land b)were scattered,c) profaned Jehovahs name while they went to the nations,d) in what previous time, that they may return, be "regrafted" to it?(you obviously dont get the RE in the word grafted concept) Yeah, Yeah, I know, that's what the Bible says but the Watcthower says it means something ealse. Your body may be out, but they still have your mind!
The New Covenant is no longer the The Mosaic law, written in stone
It is the Law of CHRIST written in your hearts. (not stone!, the stone heart will be softened)
The New Heart of flesh is the one that will allow natural Israel to believe in Christ!Thus not being exculded from Gods Undeserved Kindness. Do You think N. Israel desreves it? Do YOU deserve it? This is what the New Covenant is about! God's Grace peoples hearts
Undeserved kindness is deserved by no one.Not natural Israel,not the gentiles,not Jehovhas witnesses not ANYBODY! We are all in need of MERCY. The old Mosaic law was used to show that! The Solution is Christ! He stops the condemnation of the Law in all those that belive in HIM.
And as I see in you and you see in Natural Israel, some are more stubborn than others. But thats OK, not to worry, God can do ANYTHING! It just takes a little longer with some than with others
If and Then:
If they did not obey, they were removed!
When their heart are softened THEN they will obey!
That is your IF and Then answer!
Thats Where God says HE WILL.
Otherwise it is no longer God Who gets the credit for doing it!
It will be weak, stubborn, sinfull man who did it!
Dont You Get it no man will do it! GOD WILL DO IT!
You are argueing with Jehovah, these are His words not mine.
Every time he says I Will, I Will, I Will. HE WILL.
Answer those simple questions! Again they are numbered, aswer accordingly! You've been trained very well on answering to: "1 part a)"
Then go back and try that with the rest of the post you havent responded to!
Emiliano
JoinedPosts by Emiliano
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Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
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117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
Jehovahs people are all "Christians" because they belive in Christ.
You are still not Addressing the Issuses and points in the post.
Repeating the same argument which Ive already answered
The generation ...
Yes Can hear that! And I can respond and have responded you are the one who isnt listening! And havent responded!
I can hear that; the promise goes to the gentiles. Cant you hear or understand as The Bible explains that this is what was meant about the wild brances being Grafted in? natural Israel their enemies, will not be excluded because they will be re-grafted in?
Jehovah will show mercy to all who come to Christ not to all who become "Jehovah's Witnesses" or you would be excluded if you leaft.
When natural Israels heart is softened they will have faith in Christ too!
That is you if an then response!
You have ears and eyes!
Dont keep covering them.
Yes you need to say more.
Read the post and respond To the points.
MDS Same applies to you!
CAPEESH? -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
Jr
Jehovah made the promise to Abraham. This promise was a unilateral covenant that Jehovah made with Abraham. In other words there was only one side that agreed to do something.
There was no condition imposed on Abraham.
You are right no one can thwart Jehovahs plans, in this case he is using the temporary removal of the Natural Israelites so that the wild branches may come in. After the the fullness of the gentiles come in natural Israel will be re-grafted. I've answered your Galatians 3 questions in the post you are avoiding.
Ive already answered this same question. Its in the post which you
keep avoiding. What are your explanations to that post? I would like to know, I numbered the points so you can respond accordingly.
It appears you that you cant. -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
These are only observations.
You may no longer be a JW but that doesnt mean you havent been affected by it.
You still havent responded to the post!
Indicate what part or parts of this argument aren't scripturally sound? -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
If the watchtower has such direct accurate knowledge in these last days why have they had so many failed prophecies?
Because they dont have accurate knowledge
Only false speculations!
Read your Bible not the Watchtower inaccurate Speculations. -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
JR
Its so easy Ive already answered it in the previous post.
1. Gal.3:14 is reflected by what Paul said about the broken branches that the wild ones would be grafted in.
2. The promise of faith God made with Abraham. Anyone who is faithfull is of Christ. When Natural Israel's heart is softened by God they too will belong to Christ.
The few remenant Jews that became believers in the first century,The gentiles that become believers and finally when God softens the heart of Natural Israel they too will be faithfull. Go back to Ezeq. and Rmns Post.
You keep asking the same questions . Ive already answered .
And yet Ive noticed that you guys are not tackleing Ezeq. and Romans
You are avoiding it. Is it that the Watchtower did not program you to do any thinking of your own?
Answer the questions of my previous post.
Emiliano -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
Hi Guys, Sorry for taking so long. Im having problems with my service provider . This is the fourth attempt in sending this post.
Hope it doesnt get lost too.
JR Youve learned a very nasty habit from the WT. Adding more to what is written. You keep putting words in my mouth, show me where I said that only Jews were Christian? Point it out!
Yes a few Jews did become Christian in the first century,it wasnt the whole nation. Most of the believers were gentiles. There is no conflict with what James wrote. You are right the old system was removed. The small number of Jews who became believers have just done so before the rest of the nation of Israel has. There is no problem there its all in the Bible. Remember these are the ones who God will show mercy to, the broken branches which have that have been broken that the wild branches, in other words the gentiles may be grafted.
Tell me this, Who are the enemies mentioned in Romans 11?
What does it mean when Paul says they will be re-grafted? answer that!
Why cant he say that about the (gentiles) wild brances?
Are the wild branches being put back to a tree they were never in before when they are Grafted in? Answer that!
What About these enemies (natural Israel) the natural branches who were broken off? Are they being put back to a tree they have been torn from? Out of these two which branch is being put BACK?
These questions are even easier to answer than those at the bottom of your WT Magazines! The difference is that here you would be underlining and higlighting your Bible or God's words and what his thought on the subject is. The WT magazines words you underline are the answers that they want you to understand! Listen to God' s words not the WT's. Get back to me on the verses presented to you on Romans
11:1 What does Paul mean When saying "God has not rejected His people,has HE? Answer that! And why does he follow with" for I too am a n Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." Was Pauls blood not Naturally Israelie blood ?
What is this whole Chapter saying ?
In summerize it for you.
1.Natural Israel is the natural brancehes.
2.The gentiles are the wild brancehes.
3.The natural Israel was disobedient that the wild brancehes may be grafted in.
4.The Natural Israel Israel has stumbled but not fallen completely.
5.The nation of Natural Israel were viewed as enemies to the belivers of the first century.
6.They have hardened hearts.
7.This condition is not complete nor permanent.
8. The words "partial hardening" and "until" prove point 7.
9. Thus all of Israel will be saved means just that!
10'Through out the Chapter he is the Romans not to think that Their "enemies will not some day also become believers"
11. When the nation of Israel is re grafted and the gentiles are grafted these both groups will be in Christ. This way both the nation of Israel is included and The gentiles are included in the new system
The system of grace(undeserved kindness) and mercy not the old system of the law that would condemn both groups.
Please show me by number which of these points are not Part of Romans 11.
MDS
You too are twisting and reading more that what I wrote into my words.
Point out to me where I wrote, that it is the first century NauralIsrael of Jesus's day that would be exalted?
You are stumbleing over your own arguments.
You yourself gave me the answer in your supposed objection. That objection is no Objectiion at all!
Didnt you write[of NATURAL ISRAEL of Jesus's day] ?
There is your answer! Jesus was telling that to as you pointed out that Generation.
Boy! that word Generation is such a problem for you Watchtower heads. Jesus in talking to that first century generation he foretold many things that would happen to that first century generation.
The desolation of Jerusalem, no stone would be left upon another.. you know; Jesus told them This of Generation of 1914...oops!thats not in the bible is it? Sorry thats just another false WT speculation
will not pass away... Anyway you get the point. The things that Jesus foretold about this " first century Natural ISRAEL" were fulfilled. Is it just, that these first century Israel are to be judged for not having recognized Jesus as their Messiah on palm Sunday and for having been the ones who had him put to death?
Of course! No confilict there! That makes perfect sense! They will be Judge accordint to what they did, When? In that first century!
There is no natural Israelite that is alive today that existed in the first century. Why would these Israelites in 2001 be judged for
putting Jesus to death? They were simply not even there to have had anything to do with it! Now that doesnt make any sense. It is understandable that the following generations have inherited many of the problems form their first century forefathers. A bad reputation, a bad name, being scattered,having the kingdom taken away, being hated by other nations anti- semitism , a hardened heart, etc. etc. All these things are understandable consequences caused by their first century forefathers.
If a mans great grandfather murdered my greatgrandfather It would not make any sense for me to attempt to put the great grandson on trial! If you were that grandson and I came to you and told you your greatgrandfather killed my greatgrandfather and that I was going to going to take you to trial for that murder. You would say ;"are you crazy or something? I wasn't even born yet. The courts will throw it out." This is how ridiculous your argument sounds!!!
Respond to this MDS.
About Ezequiel 36; It is absolutely Identifying natural Israel here! Point out to me what verse, if any, you could insert "spiritual Israel" and still have it make sense.
For instance, when has spiritual Israel lived in the land that God promised Abraham He would given to his Natural offspring? answer that! Even if spiritual Israel will be heirs of Abrahams faith which I believe to be true, they have never lived in that land for them to return to it! You cant return to a place you have never been in before! How do YOU return ? Explain that! The whole chapter discribes the Restoration of Natural Israel. Webster's Dictionary defines RESTORATION: A bringing back to a former position or condition. Since when does spiritual Israel have a former position or condition in Gods relationship that they may go back to? Answer that! All of Ezequiel is filled with these issues, I've posted them verse by verse. Please respond answering the verses posted! The verses are Gods words not Mine.
I inserted for your benefit (natural Israel) throughout the post of Ezequiel. Try inserting spiritual Israel in the same manner it just doesnt fit in . If you think it does explain How!
MDS, Jr: you keep sidestepping these issuses. What is your response?
Use your own mind if you still have it.
Re: MDS to Tr
That is absurd.
The wt winning some court cases doesnt prove any such thing!
There are many cults who are protected by our constitution
All it shows is that the constitution supports freedom of religion.
OJ Simpson won a court case too!
If he claimed that he must be innocent because if he wasnt God wouldnt have cleared the obstacles that led him to win his aquittal?
Would you belive that?
I bet if the wt told you to believe it, you would!
These claims are absurd!!
God bless
I'll keep praying for you
Emiliano -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
Bjc and Jr.
Apparently the watchtower has really done a number on you guys.
That last post from bjc is a perfect example of how you twist things that are written by reading things that are simply not there.
I never said I had Jehovah's E-mail. I said I was sorry that I didnt have it.I never said that only jews were christians. This is a very common symptom of people who have been in a mind control situation. I run into this type of things with Watchtowerites all the time. Comments like yes that is what the Bible says but that is not what it means. Or, yes thats what that verse says but thats not what we've been taught.
Try accepting what Jehovah says as something he means for a change.
You are totaly ignoring the post on Ezequiel 36
What part of "I, THE LORD, HAVE SPOKEN AND WILL DO IT" dont you get?
If God said that he will soften the heart of stone. He will do it!
If God said that he will put His spirit within them .He will do it!
If God said that they will live in the land of their forefathers. Then they will.
If God says that he will cleanse them he will!
All these things he will do not because they deserve it. He will do it for His name sake.
The promise was made to Abraham.
It had no condition.
The covenat of the law that was given to Israel (not to Abraham) was broken by Israel and as we all know they are paying for it, Jerusalem was crushed,the kingdom was taken away, they have been scattered etc. To this day they remain hardened. There will be an end to this, God will soften their hearts for His name sake.
When God puts his spirit within them they too will be spiritual.
As far as what is in Galatians 3, its not problem.
So far the gentiles are reaping the benefits of Israels temporary hardening. But when this ends according to Paul and Jehovah in Ezequiel 36 God will soften their hearts, put his spirit within them, cleanse them from their filth and them they will be obedient and they will be God's people and God will be their God.
This will be possible because God will make it possible.
If Israel is said to become obedient at that time, isnt part of that obedience their accepting Jesus as their King? There you have it!
They will be of Christ too, They too will have faith Just like Abraham
They will trust in God and be heirs to the promise.
Dont make the same mistake as Israel, they didnt have faith, it could lead to problems.
Ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. The Holy Spirit makes a much better teacher than the watchtower. The watchtower is constantly flip flopping their teaching because of false speculations. Stop trying to read into scripture watchtower self fullfilling prophesy that's just not there.
The Word of God doesn't change.( even though the watchtower is trying its best to, with its NWT)
Try reading the word in context. Dont let the watchtower hold your hand through a detoured filled biblical obstacle course.
Try having the faith of Abraham and believe Gods word.
The Israelites cant make God break his promise to Abraham.
Dont continue sidestepping these issues.
God bless -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
God has picked Israel, Israel has proved to be disobedient. God prophesied all this would happen. In the end God's original unconditonal covenant whith Abraham is unilateraland Irrevocable.
Genesis 12:1"Go forth from your country,and from your relativesand from your father's to the land that I will show you. house 2I will make you great nation, And I will bless you, and make your name great; and so you shall be a blessing;3And I will bless those who bless you and the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
7.And the Jehovah appeared to Abraham and said to your descendants I will give this land. So he built an altar there to Jehovah who had appeared to him.( incidently this was not an angel making altars to angels isnt allowed)
The promise of the giving of that land to his descendants had no condition which Abraham had to keep.That was Jehovah's will just because he wanted to give him that promise.
God will fullfill his purpose in spite of what Abraham's descendants are srewing up.
Ezequiel touches on that something which Paul was apparently informed about.
Ezequiel 36:17 "Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in THEIR OWN LAND,(by virtue of God's promise to Abraham) they defiled it by their ways and thier deeds;their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurit.18"Therefore, I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land,because they had defiled it with their idols.19"Also I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and thier deeds I judged them.(The judgement was scattering them not destroying them)20'When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them,'These people (natural Israel) are the people of Jehovah, yet they have come out of His land.'21"But I had concern for My holy name,which you have profaned among the nations where you went.22"Therefore, say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord God," It is not for your sake,(no, they didn't deserve it)O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name,which you have profaned among the nations where you went.23 "And I wil vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned against the nations, which you profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am Jehovah" declares the Lord God, when I prove Myself holy amoun you (natural Israel) in their sight. (How will God do that? Where were the natural Israelites among the nations, right?
This is how.):verse 24 " For I will take you (natural Israel) from the nations, gather you from all the lands,and bring you into your OWN LAND,(Remember this OWN LAND from verse 17? Its the same natural Israel) 25" Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you (natural Israel)will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.26 "Moreover, I will give you (natural Israel) a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone (that hardened heart)from your (natural Israel's) flesh and I will give you a heart of flesh. 27" And I will put My Spirit within you ( guess what? God makes them spiritual) and you will be careful to observe my ordinances . 28 " And you (natural Israel) will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; ( the natural relatives who were disobedient idol worhippers) and you(natural Israel) will be My people, and I will be your God.29" More over I will SAVE you form your uncleanness, and I will call for the
grain to multiply and the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, that you may not recieve again( again means it is the same Israel, this isn't a substitute Israel because they wouldnt have had experienced it before)the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31
" Then you will remember will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were no good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 "I am not doing this for your sake," declares the Lord God,"let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O House of (who? naturally)Israel!". 33 Thus says The Lord God, "On the day that I cleanse you(natur... ) from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places will be rebuilt. 34"And the desolate land will be cultivated instead of being a desolation a desolation in the sight of everyone who passes by. 35 " And they willsay,' This desolate land has become like the garden of Eden; and the waste,desolate, and ruined cities are fortified and inahabited."36 Then the nations that are left round about you(na..... ......you get the picture you cant be that slow ) will know that I, the Lord, Have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which is desolate; I THE LORD, HAVE SPOKEN AND WILL DO IT."
This is all about the restoration of Israel not the replacement of Israel.
What ealse do you guys need? Jehovah's E-mail? So that you can try to convince him what He will do? The Lord has spoken it,and will do it!
Sorry, and I really mean it sorry I don't have his E-mail. Try prayer. Stop parroting the Watchtower Magazines and start reading the Bible without the watchtower telling you what mental acrobatics and contortion you need to do so that you can see it their way. Read the Bible in context without reading watchtower self fullfiling prophesies that just aren't there, into it. Ask the Holy Spirit to
teach you. That works better than asking the watchtower to teach you. The Holy Spirit doesn't need to make changes or excuses for its false speculations. Try as you put it " the faith of Abraham", trust in God when he says " I, the Lord, have spoken and will do it."
1. The promise was made to Abraham
2.Disobedient Israel of old screwed things up especialy when they killed Jesus in the first century . They were scattered for that.
3. Israel of today are still paying for what their first century fathers did.
4.God will cleans them from their sins and soften their hardenend hearts.
God Bless -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
Jr. and MDS
In the first century there was Israelites who became Christians,
so that easily explains why I find no problem with James speaking to natural israelites the remenant who became obedient believers in the first century. The remenant is not all of Israel. Yes in those days only a few accepted Christ some day the nation of Israel will see their mistake and soften their hearts to thier King Jesus. If it takes God's chastisement in form of bringing all other nations to war with Israel, so be it.
God will show mercy to the natural Israel and to The Gentiles
When the nation of Israel become believers they will be saved.Salvation is not a condemnation.
Remember that Paul is talking to the Gentiles about what is to happen to the natural nation of Israel in the future. The rementant Israelites of those days are not part of whom he is talking about there because these are not the hardened ones. The nation is the hardened one and some day they will be forgiven after they accept Christ. When this happens the gentiles, the remenant Israelites of the first century along with the ones who are becoming Christians until now,and the nation of Isreal who will some day accept Christ and become believers (having the faith of Abraham), all will be in Christ. Being that they will all be in his Kingdom they will all be citizens of the heavenly rule the spirtual Israel.