Posts by thirdwitness

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

thirdwitness

Continuing on with AlanF's comments which are in italics.

Second, in various communications from U.N. official Paul Hoeffel, including and especially one dated 4-March-2004 ( http://home.comcast.net/~alanf00/images/UN_Letter_4_Mar_2004.pdf ), Hoeffel explained the U.N.'s official stance regarding the Watchtower organization's acceptance for Associated NGO status with the DPI:

By accepting association with DPI, the organization agreed to meet criteria for association, including support and respect of the principles of the Charter of the United Nations and commitment and means to conduct effective information programmes with its constituents and to a broader audience about UN activities. . .

This seems like pretty damning evidence, doesn't it. However, we must remember that these statements were made in 2004 and after the fact. As we saw earlier, in no place on any of the forms signed by the Society was anything said about “support and respect of the principles” of the UN charter. Those statements simply are not there on the original forms even though AlanF lies and says that he saw an original application signed by Lloyd Barry. Some may deny it, but the facts speak for themselves.

Why did Mr Hoeffel not make it plain and state that the 1991 forms did include such requirements and show us these requirements on those 1991 forms? Why does Mr. Hoeffel not supply us with the agreement used by his office in 1991 showing where the officer of the WTS would have signed agreeing to meet the criteria that he states? That would have been definitive proof. Why doesn't he send us the 1992 brochure instead of quoting information from a 2004 brochure? Can it be because the 1991 forms have no such agreement and that the 1992 brochure has no such criteria of 'supporting the principles and charter of the UN'? So far, that has proven to be the case for no one has brought forth those documents although AlanF lies and says that he saw an original application signed by Lloyd Barry.

Who really is being untrustworthy and trying to “hide the facts”? Is it the Watchtower Society, whose explanation agrees with the 1991 evidence? Or is it not the DPI, and opposers like AlanF, who has wrongly insinuated that the criteria to support the UN as a DPI NGO was on the original application — when we know for a fact that it was not?Third, in its letter to Branch Committees of 1 November 2001, the Watchtower Society implicitly admits that it knew about the criteria for association:The Criteria for Association of NGOs -- at least in their latest version -- contain language that we cannot subscribe to. When we realized this, we immediately withdrew our registration.

If the Society can compare the latest version of the "Criteria for Association of NGOs" with the supposedly different version that existed when it applied for association in 1991, and conclude that the new version contains "language that we cannot subscribe to" whereas the old version did not, then obviously the Society must have known exactly what those earlier criteria were.This, of course, immediately raises the question of why the Society has never produced a copy of the supposedly different earlier criteria so that people can check if it is telling the truth. But because various U.N. staffers and others have shown that the 1991 criteria remained essentially the same through 2001, the Society obviously does not want to contribute to another expose of its lying.

The WTS has clearly answered these questions and have stated that they signed nothing that compromised their beliefs. They know exactly what was on the original forms and so yes they can accurately compare what they signed with the latest version of the criteria in the 2001 brochure. None of the forms say that the NGO 'must support the principles and charter of the UN'. That is not on the original application, that is not on the later accreditation forms, and that is not even in the 1994 brochure. The language did defnitely change as respects the criteria stated by the DPI.

We have proof that it changed from 1994 to 2001. The 1994 brochure says: “Who is eligible for association with the DPI? Non-profit organizations which: share the ideals of the UN charter;” The 2001 brochure says: “What are the Criteria for NGOs to become associated with DPI? The NGO must support and respect the principles of the Charter of the UN and have a clear mission statement that is consistent with those principles;” Did the language in the different brochures change or not? Why, yes, obviously it did. The WTS did not lie. And that is only comparing the 1994 brochure with the 2001 brochure. Much less the 1992 brochure if it even does exist.

Can anyone show any forms that the WTS would have signed which showed that they agreed to support and respect the principles of the Charter of the UN? No they cannot. How then can you call them a liar. Anyone who calls them a liar does so without any evidence and therefore they are either mistaken themselves or are exactly what they accuse the WTS of being, an outright liar.

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

thirdwitness

What does it mean to 'support' the UN as used by the DPI in stating their criteria. Well, remember Oleg Dzioubinski, Information Officer of the DPI told us that Ngo's with the DPI 'can criticize the UN'. And remember Isolda Oca also of the DPI talked to an opposers of JWs and even the opposer admitted that "the gist of the conversation was... 1) It is not unusual for organizations that are in disagreements with the United Nations to become an NGO with them." We know this thanks to the efforts of a known apostate which many of you have relied on for you WT/NGO/DPI/UN information, Randy.

But keep in mind, that all of the above is based on the 1994 brochure, not the 1991 or 1992 brochure if one does exist. There is evidence that NGOs were not always sent brochures. Did the WTS receive a brochure when registering with the DPI in 1991 or 1992?

In 1999 the Secretary-General published a report in which he stressed the need for a brochure to be sent to all NGOs:

“It was also proposed that each NGO should receive an orientation/welcome booklet and/or session upon obtaining formal status with the UN. The information should include specifics about the NGO liaison offices in the UN system, including names, contacts, locations. The booklet should reinforce mutual rights and responsibilities, as well as practical guidelines for the functioning of NGOs within physical structures and protocols of the UN, including how to follow debates and so forth.” — Section 24

We wonder why in 1999 the Secretary General should have “proposed” that each NGO should receive a welcome booklet or brochure including “specifics” about the UN system and “practical guidelines” and “protocols” for NGOs, if the NGOs were already receiving such a booklet prior to this.

Perhaps receipt of this booklet was sporadic, perhaps it was not sent every year. Perhaps the Watchtower Society didn't even receive one when their status was granted in 1992. What is certain, however, is that they certainly did not receive the 2005 brochure which opposers constantly quote from — the Society couldn't have possibly received that version 13 years earlier, for we know it's contents have changed. When opposers quote from the 2005 version as proof that the Watchtower Society supported the UN — they are simply wrong. Whatever was said in the 1991 brochure which the Society received — if they received one at all — it certainly did not say that. Further, when it is claimed the NGO requirements did not change, this is also clearly wrong for the UN has said they changed.

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

thirdwitness

I will make one last attempt even though much of this is a repeat of previous points covered. But for the sake of truth seekers I will do it again.

AlanF in italics.

This is a strawman for two reasons:

(1) Whether an agreement can be produced, or was even explicitly made, is immaterial to the fact that the U.N. itself has always considered acceptance of associated NGO status as an implicit acceptance of all of the clearly published criteria.

An agreement cannot be produced. That is the point. Try getting a loan by just filling out an application without signing an agreement as to how the loan will be paid back.

(2) Thirdwitness deliberately misrepresents what I said. What I said was that the act of applying for Associated NGO status constitutes an agreement to abide by the criteria, whereas he turns this act into another sort of agreement (apparently he is demanding a written agreement). But the very act of accepting the Associated NGO status IS the agreement.

The act of accepting the associated status means that the DPI has determined that the NGO meets the criteria. Therefore if the DPI says the criteria is to 'support' the charter of the UN (which by the way is not worded that way in the 1994 brochure) it does not mean what you say it means. The DPI has determined what it means by accepting that NGO.

Did the Watchtower Society, by its acceptance of Associated NGO status and various other actions, agree to abide by criteria such as promoting and respecting all aspects of the U.N. Charter? Indeed it did,

Then show us that agreement signed by Lloyd Barry that you said you saw. Show us the original application signed by Lloyd Barry that you said you saw. Or even show us a blank application with a place for a signature agreeing to support the UN. Are you a liar? So it would appear.

First, I've already shown via U.N. materials, in my post # 4761 on page 21 of this thread, that the U.N. considers that the "very act of applying for Associated NGO status, when the criteria clearly state that such application is an agreement to promote and respect the U.N. Charter, constitutes an agreement to abide by the criteria."

I notice you use quotation marks here when you say, "very act of applying for Associated NGO status, when the criteria clearly state that such application is an agreement to promote and respect the U.N. Charter, constitutes an agreement to abide by the criteria." as if you are quoting some UN statement. Is that true? Or are you once again using an old wiley apostate tactic making things appear different from what they really are in an attempt to mislead the readers.

When any NGO applies for association, it receives a pile of written material explaining the Associated NGO's responsibilities, which include things like promoting and respecting the principles of the U.N. Charter. Therefore, if an Associated NGO claims ignorance of the requirements, it is lying.

That is an assumption on your part. Especially back in 1992. There has not been a brochure shown from 1992 and it is even doubtful that the WTS was sent such a brochure. And we know for sure that the 1994 brochure did not say 'support the principles and charter of the UN'. So yes the criteria did indeed change between 1994 and 2001 at least in the wording on the brochure. As for 1992, who knows how much it changed from then until 1994.

To mislead their readers, many critics of Jehovah's Witnesses, such as AlanF, quote from the current version of the DPI's NGO brochure and falsely claim that those requirements are what the Watchtower Society originally signed up to in 1991. The requirements given by the brochure for the DPI's NGOs include the requirement that the NGO "must support and respect the principles of the Charter of the UN". Critics quote this brochure as the “proof” that the Society secretly knew they were supporting the United Nations in all their endeavors. They claim that this requirement was in place since before 1991, and has remained unchanged ever since. Is this claim true?

No. The critics are lying. They simply hope that you won't think too much about it, and that you won't delve a little deeper and discover the evidence that the NGO world has changed considerably since 1991. We do not have the brochure from 1991, but we do have a copy of the 1994 brochure, which is considerably different from the current version which the apostates quote.

In fact, the 1994 brochure even testifies to the very fact the requirements and expectations of the DPI's NGOs were changing. Page six of the 1994 document says this:

“A new relationship between the UN and NGOs is now being created. We have seen this new relationship begin to mature. NGOs are taking on important new responsibilities.”

Indeed, the above statement proved accurate. For if we compare the current (2005) brochure to the 1994 brochure, we see major changes. For example, the 2005 brochure says the following:

“What are the Criteria for NGOs to become associated with DPI? The NGO must support and respect the principles of the Charter of the UN and have a clear mission statement that is consistent with those principles;”

Apostates often use the above quote, and repeat it endlessly as “proof” of the Watchtower Society's support of the UN. Yet this appears in the 2005 brochure, do we know if it appears in the older brochures? We already stated that we have a copy of the 1994 brochure, so does that phrase appear there? No, not at all. On the contrary, in the 1994 brochure we find that the above statement has replaced the following original statement:

“Who is eligible for association with the DPI? Non-profit organizations which: share the ideals of the UN charter;”

Notice the difference. In 2005, NGOs must support the principles of the UN Charter. In 1994, the NGOs must simply share the same ideals.

Some have pointed to page 7 of the 1994 brochure where it says, that for the NGO must show that they "can prove, during the initial two years of association with DPI, that they support the United Nations by featuring U.N. information in their publications and outreach activity."

It does not say support the UN by supporting the principles and charter of the UN. It does not say support the UN by supporting all their endeavors. The support spoken of is by writing articles about the UN. In other words the word support as defined in Websters dictionary in this case means 'to provide corroborating information'.

And remember it is the DPI that determines themselves whether they believe an NGO meets their criteria. The DPI looks at the information and decides themselves. So they are the ones who determine exactly what they mean when they use the word support.

More to come.

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

thirdwitness

I also have just realized why many of you have left the truth. It is because you worshiped the WTS. You worshiped the organization. And so when you saw that people in the organization were imperfect or saw wrongdoing or what you perceived as wrongdoing being committed, you were stumbled and left Jehovah and his people. On the other hand, true JWs upon seeing the imperfections of men in the organization are not stumbled because they worship Jehovah not the organization.

What made me realize this is all the praise heaped upon AlanF. No one dare disagree with AlanF. AlanF will kick your butt. AlanF will answer for us. Don't mess with AlanF. You merely replaced the WTS with AlanF. You still cannot think for yourself. You still follow in blind obedience. But true worshipers of Jehovah do not follow the WTS in blind obedience. They research and diligently look into the Bible and they see for themselves that the teachings of JWs are in accord with the Bible. They are not blindly following the organization as many of you were who left it. True worshippers of Jehovah are wide awake in their realization that JWs are God's organization.

Of course, some, like AlanF, have replaced the WTS with Carl Jonnson, secular chronology, and his own self. He has even replaced the Bible (not inspired of God according to him) and Jehovah (just a tribal god not unlike the gods of the Chaldeans, Assyrians, or Egyptians) with Carl Jonnson, secular chronology, and himself.

Case in point: AlanF's blatant disregard for the guidelines of the DB. But no one dare correct AlanF. He can call you liar, moron, idiot, f***ing hypocrit, and whatever other name he can think of and then tell you that thirdwitness should be removed from the DB because he disregards the guidelines and is a liar. Then he justifies why he can do it and most here praise his reasoning. Who will speak up against AlanF? Who will tell AlanF that he is the chief breaker of the rules? Will the administrator stand up? Is AlanF above the rules? He's just like your perception of the WTS. He does not have to follow the rules at all. Only the peons like thirdwitness needs to be counseled about the rules. Yes, AlanF is your new WTS. What a laughing stock you opposers of JWs are to honest lurkers and onlookers.

Case in point: the subject of parousia. AlanF was left looking so ridiculous that I was even a little bit embarrassed for him. But dare anyone cross him and tell him he was obviously wrong? No way. He is your new Watchtower Society who you blindly follow. Whatever AlanF says is truth. If AlanF says the sky is green and the grass is blue well then the sky is green and the grass is blue. If AlanF says parousia in Matt 24 should be translated 'coming' despite all the contextual evidence against such translation then AlanF must be right. If AlanF says no 'modern' scholars say that parousia in Matt 24 should be translated presence then it must be right.

Another case in point: AlanF said of Lloyd Barry and the NGO/DPI application: The fact is that Barry did sign the original application form ... How many know that AlanF is wrong? But how many will come forth and correct the mighty god who has replaced the WTS, AlanF? No one has yet and many are so well studied on this subject that they know for a fact that AlanF is either mistaken or is an outright liar.

Another case in point: Remember the conversation with Oleg (who I mistakenly called Greg). Do you remember AlanF telling us how the questioning of Oleg and the way it was done was devious? Even when it would be to your benefit to correct Mr. Alan F no one would dare speak against him. AlanF's exact words concerning the questioning of the DPI offficer, Oleg were: Perhaps the problem lies in the ignorant, and perhaps devious manner in which the questions were posed.

Of course you all loved it and agreed wholeheartedly no doubt with the all wise guru of the DB, AlanF, that the questioner, who you believe to be thirdwitness, is both ignorant and devious. I wholeheartedly agree with AlanF for once. I believe the questioner was ignorant of the facts and devious in what he was trying to do. If you will look at this site: http://www.randytv.com/secret/unitednations.htm you will find out just who that questioner was.

Who can stand against AlanF and his followers?

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

thirdwitness

Before I address AlanF's latest same old tired inaccurate reasoning I would like to go back in the past to page 7 of this thread and address Auldsoul's comment where he said:

They did not register, there is no such thing as a registrant/registrar relationship between NGOs and the UN/DPI.

Then he tried to make it appear that the WTS is trying to cover up that they were members or associated with the DPI and says: The Society outrightly lies when they mischaracterize the nature of the relationship as one of registrant to registrar.

My reply was this: What did the WTS really say? Did they deny that they ever had a membership to the DPI as Auldsoul contends?

Two quotes from letters sent out by the WTS disproves what Auldsoul is saying:

Quote #1: “Moreover, NGOs are informed by the United Nations that "association of NGOs with the DPI does not constitute their incorporation into the United Nations system, nor does it entitle associated organizations or their staff to any kind of privileges, immunities or special status."

Reasoning on the matter: If the WT was claiming that they were never associated with the DPI why would they quote information form the UN showing that "association of NGOs with the DPI does not constitute their incorporation into the United Nations?

Quote # 2: “After learning of the situation, our membership as NGO was withdrawn and the ID card of the writer was returned.” Here is something new that destroys Auldsoul's argument that association and registration are not the same. From the UN.org site. http://www.un.org/reform/pdfs/hlp9.htm UN SYSTEM AND CIVIL SOCIETY -
AN INVENTORY AND ANALYSIS OF PRACTICES

May 2003

Under the heading: Accreditation with ECOSOC:

Comes this quote:

It does, however, provide a number of practical benefits, such as obtaining passes to enter UN grounds, attend meetings and interact with governments or secretariat staff (as does being on DPI Register).

And under the heading: Accreditation with the Department for Public Information

Comes this quote: Currently about 1400 NGOs, mostly Northern, are accredited with DPI...................... The DPI NGO Section has recently been weeding out the inactive ones from its register...

Auldsoul and opposers of JWs have been trying to make such a big deal about the difference in 'registering' as opposed to 'becoming associated with' but apparently it is not as big of deal as they would lead us to believe. I will repeat what I said earlier. The WTS registered as an NGO associated with the DPI . Then as they said, they later withdrew their Membership.

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

thirdwitness

Outlaw: Do you have any idea how stupid you look to the rest of us?...

Hey, Noah, Do you have any idea how stupid you look to the rest of us?...

Hey Christian fleeing to the mountains in 70 CE, Do you have any idea how stupid you look to the rest of us?...

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

thirdwitness

Zico: I can’t see why it should really matter that much if someone in Malawi had a card saying they supported the party?

I can’t see why it should really matter that much if someone said heil Hitler and supported the Nazi party?

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

thirdwitness

done4good: Articles in the Awake magazine were clearly written to appease the UN,

Then you must be also claiming that article written prior to become an NGO with DPI were also written to appease the Un and the WTS had at least a 17 year plot to do so. Also they continue to write articles to appease the UN despite the fact that they are no longer an NGO with DPI. This is why your claim holds no water. That and the facts that this chart shows:

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/charts/mankindshope.html

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

thirdwitness

Tell me thirdwitness. How does Babylon the Great ride the back of the wildbeast if not as UN associated NGO's? How does religion become a part of the UN if not through NGO association?

There are many ways. By coming an NGO with the ECOSOC thus be in consultative status with the UN. By siding with the UN in their resolutions and military actions. Well, Basically the answer is By exalting the UN as the hope for man to solve its problems. I think you probably know this already.

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

thirdwitness

Gary1914, You have just made a typical response by someone that when faced with the facts does not want to acknowledge them. You write a bunch of words and rhetoric as if it were fact but offer no proof of what you say. It is like saying: the moon is made of cheese because you can buy cheese at the store so where else could it come from. Are you saying that the WTS had a 17 year plot to become an NGO with the DPI? That is how far back one of the articles in the Awake magazine about the UN that I quoted from is dated.