If anything, they did a better advertising job than the BBC. If they really didn't want people seeing it, they would have had more success staying at home. Bad publicity is still publicity, as the saying goes.
serotonin_wraith
JoinedPosts by serotonin_wraith
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5
Jerry Springer the Opera
by serotonin_wraith ini remember all the fuss about this when it first came out, but i was never really that interested in watching it.. then the other day i saw the dvd for 3 (us$6) in hmv, and i couldn't see anything else i wanted, so i decided to give it a try.
afterall, what's 3?.
and wow, why in the world hadn't i bothered with this before?
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5
Jerry Springer the Opera
by serotonin_wraith ini remember all the fuss about this when it first came out, but i was never really that interested in watching it.. then the other day i saw the dvd for 3 (us$6) in hmv, and i couldn't see anything else i wanted, so i decided to give it a try.
afterall, what's 3?.
and wow, why in the world hadn't i bothered with this before?
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serotonin_wraith
The Operawas kept from being shown on British TV by religious groups despite overwhelming critical praise.
It was shown afterwards. From wiki:
The musical was the subject of controversy beginning in January 2005, when its UK television broadcast on BBC Two was the subject of 55,000 complaints.[1] The organisation Christian Voice led street protests against the screening at nine BBC offices[2] and announced their intention to bring blasphemy charges, due to the depictions of the Judeo-Christian characters in Act II. The Christian Institute levelled charges against the BBC,[3] but these were rejected by the High Court of Justice.[4]
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5
Jerry Springer the Opera
by serotonin_wraith ini remember all the fuss about this when it first came out, but i was never really that interested in watching it.. then the other day i saw the dvd for 3 (us$6) in hmv, and i couldn't see anything else i wanted, so i decided to give it a try.
afterall, what's 3?.
and wow, why in the world hadn't i bothered with this before?
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serotonin_wraith
I remember all the fuss about this when it first came out, but I was never really that interested in watching it.
Then the other day I saw the DVD for £3 (US$6) in HMV, and I couldn't see anything else I wanted, so I decided to give it a try. Afterall, what's £3?
And WOW, why in the world hadn't I bothered with this before? It is amazing! I've liked Stewart Lee's stuff anyway so I don't know why I thought it would be rubbish. It isn't. I've seen it three times now.
Check out some clips on youtube if you're interested. Here's some of my faves-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YFklD5rwFU (Talk to the Hand)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9z2NDjF-6Q (Jesus/Satan confrontation)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6aCdBaOjaY (I Just Wanna Dance)
Well I like them all, so I'd better stop there. Anyone else like this?
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Against God - Interesting online article
by serotonin_wraith insix pages in total.
i found it an interesting read, you may too.. http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/against-god/2007/04/14/1175971410059.html?page=1.
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serotonin_wraith
Six pages in total. I found it an interesting read, you may too.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/against-god/2007/04/14/1175971410059.html?page=1
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100
Staying a Christian Upon Leaving
by serotonin_wraith inso you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.
congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.
now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.
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serotonin_wraith
writetoknow,
OH MY THOR!
Do you want me to refute all of that? I will, it's fine. But I need a break for the rest of the evening.
Here's a poser! Even if I do refute it all, will it make any difference to your beliefs?
Don't forget the fossil research too!
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100
Staying a Christian Upon Leaving
by serotonin_wraith inso you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.
congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.
now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.
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serotonin_wraith
Burn,
You are the one interjecting the "ONLY" not I.
Oh, well if there's other reasons for doing good things, saying God belief makes people do good things isn't much of an argument for God belief.
So let me ask you a question, SW: on what should that morality be based?
I've heard this argument a gazillion times, so I have a standard response I copy and paste. People rarely get back to me with a response, but maybe you'll have better luck. Here we go.
----------------------
First, let's consider the morality found in the Bible. God's absolute morality. The Old Testament has some pretty nasty laws. Homosexuals should be stoned, a rapist can buy his victim from her father for 50 shekels and she has to marry him, witches are to be killed, disobedient children are to be killed, women are worth less than men, people of other faiths are to be killed, and the list goes on.
As those rules are in the Old Testament, Christians think Jesus' arrival changed all that. That part is questionable already (Matt 5:17-19) but even if it is true, this opens up other problems. The ten commandments are in the OT, but I expect you try to follow them. Christians were killing witches (rather, women) long after Jesus supposedly walked the earth. I doubt you consider it a sin to do some housework or paid work on a Saturday, yet that's breaking the Sabbath. Slavery was only abolished one or two hundred years ago.
The Bible never says slavery is wrong, there are even rules (from God if he is the one who inspired it) on how to treat slaves. You can beat them to within an inch of their lives, and as long as they don't die, that is acceptable. But do you think slavery is okay?If morality comes from God, it should be, right? Should gays be killed? They should be if we have absolute morality from God. So why does the thought of that make me sick inside? I can't speak for you, but I imagine you would feel bad about it too. According to Paul, women aren't allowed to talk in church. I see that as sexist, it's certainly not part of my morality. It goes against my morality.
This shows that we pick and choose which rules we follow and which we do not. If we're picking out the rules we like from the Bible, then why is the Bible needed as a moral guide? There is no disclaimer in the Bible that says 'The following rules are subject to change', as a species we decide if it's a good rule or not.
When the Israelites reached Mt Sinai and received the law about not murdering, were they surprised? Didn't they know it was wrong before? If they did, why did they need to be told it was wrong? They would have already known. The morality would have been a part of them already.Animals are moral. Within a group of the same animal, there is harmony and cohesion. A bird on its own is at more risk from predators, and so they fly in flocks. There is safety in numbers. As a family of meercats leave the burrow to find food, one will remain to look after the babies. During the winter in Antarctica, penguins will huddle together for warmth. If a penguin tries to steal the child of another, due to their own offspring dying, other penguins will not allow it to happen. When bats go out to hunt, they may not all catch a meal. So back at their home, those who have caught prey will donate their blood to those without. The favour can be returned if they ever return without catching anything. If a wolf kills a family member, the others will drive it away as punishment. There is a unity, a standard by which groups of animals live for mutual benefit. Life is easier, and there is more chance of survival. If you watch nature programs, this kind of animal morality can be clear to see.
The same applies to the human world. We all rely on each other. In order for you to sit down to your meal today, you will have needed the support of many other humans. The people who planted the seeds, the ones who helped them grow, the ones who picked the crop, the ones who made the packaging, the ones who designed the packaging, the ones who delivered the goods to the shop, the ones who built the vehicles used for transporting the goods, the ones who designed the vehicles, the ones who pumped the gasoline from under the ground to power the vehicles... I could carry on with more examples of how humans work together, for the simple yet overlooked ability to eat a meal. Even the cutlery you use, the plate it will be on, all of these things required the help of other humans. This is just one reason why we don't kill each other. It did not require a belief in a God or even a conscience from God. It is mutually beneficial to us as a species not to kill each other.
It is within us to want to be happy. This is why we listen to music, engage in our hobbies, prefer to eat food which tastes nice rather than something bland. In the same way we want others to survive, because it helps us, we also prefer seeing people happy and not suffering, so that the favour can one day be returned to us, or to acheive a sense of personal happiness from our act of kindness, even if it is not returned.
One of the ways in which our body survives is by realizing instantly when we have physical pain. It is the body's way to tell us that it is being damaged, and it becomes an instant reflex to stop that damage. Another way we can experience pain is through our emotions. A very simple way to look at morality is to know when something is causing someone pain, physically or emotionally. Emotional damage can still lead to death if we're not careful, i.e. suicide.
People can act in a way I'd consider evil, and it happens when I see them going against the kind of morality I've explained. My own morality. From nature. All explainable. No god required.-------------------------------------
I could say the same about atheism - there is plenty of evidence to back that one up. The fact of the matter is that neither religious membership nor atheism makes people good or bad.
Atheism is not a belief. Does not believing in Thor make you do bad things?
If it wasn't for the belief in God, people wouldn't raise their children to believe in things they couldn't prove, which is bad.
If it wasn't for a belief in Allah's heaven with 72 virgins for all who kill in the name of Allah, young muslims wouldn't be blowing themselves up in crowded areas. Looks bad to me.
No it means the precise opposite; it means that God has granted us stewardship of the planet and that He cares what we do with it.
Well your Christian president (oh, don't tell me, he's not a TRUE Christian!) is making little effort to reduce the carbon emissions coming from your country while other (less religious) countries are trying to do their part. If you're not doing so already, can you please join us in trying to get him to see sense?
The human rights movement started as a Christian action. In our own country during the slave times abolitionism was a Christian movement, ditto for civil rights for Afro-Americans.
Slavery was a Christian movement. Correcting something that should never have happened in the first place isn't exactly something to be proud of. Same with the rights of blacks. It was the Christians who were saying blacks couldn't marry whites in the eyes of God, and even that they were the descendants of Cain. Fixing their mistakes doesn't make them heroes.
You might recall the name of that most famous civil rights leader: Reverend Martin Luther King.
Wasn't he killed by a Christian? That's actually a genuine question (to anyone) because I don't know. I was doing some research yesterday and I couldn't find it.
So Martin Luther King believed in God. Fair enough. Where in the Bible does it say blacks are to be treated the same as whites? The movement came from his own morality, not God's. I'm sure he believed in Japan but that didn't make him do what he did. People believe in a lot of things. Even if he had done it based on his belief in God, it wasn't needed. There were plenty of reasons for wanting blacks to be treated fairly.
As for homosexuals, you will need to be more specific as to what rights you refer to.
The rights to adopt children and get married, the right not to be refused a hotel room. This is changing in the world already, with the more secular countries taking the lead... again.
Do you really want me to work on a list of diseases that have been cured, ameliorated or treated by Christians? Really?
I never said ALL research.
As for the research thing, I can only think that you are referring to the issue with fetal research.
What, one line of research being held back by a myth isn't enough for you? Exactly how many scientific lines of enquiry have to be stopped before you have a problem with it?
would you at least be able to admit that there is a moral gray area involved here as to what the status of the unborn is?
I will admit there is a moral grey area when you admit there is a moral grey area regarding the millions of sperm that don't make it to the egg but die, and every woman's period. Look at all the 'life' killed there!
I do not know what "backward" rules you are talking about. Care to explain?
Bad generalizing on my part, sorry. You're keeping a system alive in which other Christians are trying to get rules passed, if you're not actively trying to do anything yourself. Are you pushing back against those who want creationism taught in schools with us too?
Really? Lots of closed minded individuals here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science
Faith is closed minded. People don't use faith in other parts of their lives (like science), only for God. Are you open to the possibility you could be wrong? How could someone show you you were wrong, when you don't listen to reason? Looks closed minded to me.
It seems to me that you are the closed minded one. Other members of this board have respectfully given your belief consideration while you close-mindedly attack theirs.
Actually, those who believe in creationism haven't got back to me on the fossils yet.
I'm open to the idea God exists. Nobody can give me any reason to believe though. I'm answering every 'reason' people have for believing, and showing it's not a good reason. Or maybe I'm not- that's for others to decide.
it is to disprove your statement that believers are not interested in scientific investigation and, as my comment shows, your statement is demonstrably false.
I shall rephrase then. Many Christians are closed off from any scienctific research that goes against the Bible.
The very concept you deride believers as being unwilling to investigate is one that was discovered by a believer. Oxymoronic, I know.
You presented one individual. Congratulations.
Sure, find me the natural beginning, and then we can talk about it.
Well if no evidence can disprove your god, I already know your answer. I can imagine the conversations on evolution people have had.
-Well I believe God made everything as we see it today.
-What if I proved you wrong?
-We'll talk about it then.
-*presents an overwhelming amount of proof that cannot be ignored*
-Okay, the Bible isn't being literal in those parts now. The Biblical God still exists.
-*slaps forehead in frustration*
fetal stem cells are a moral gray area, we have not worked out the ethics of this type of research.
Yeah, we have. There is no reason at all to think there are souls in these 3 day old embryos. Until there is, we should proceed as if there are not. Like everything else in life we have no reason to believe in. I'm not going to stop eating my breakfast cereal because it MAY be alive, even though I have no reason to think it is right now.
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Staying a Christian Upon Leaving
by serotonin_wraith inso you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.
congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.
now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.
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100
Staying a Christian Upon Leaving
by serotonin_wraith inso you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.
congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.
now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.
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serotonin_wraith
Funny, is it terrible to do good because I love another person?
Nope. I said supernatural entity.
Is it terrible for a son to do good because he loves his father? Is it terrible for a father to do good because he loves his son?
Is it terrible for a child to do good to his brother only because he loves his father? Yes. That's no way to teach morals to our children.
Have you considered that some believers have a relationship with the "invisible sky dude" that you deprecate as a poison and that their appreciation for what they discern about him informs their actions?
I am very much aware of this. It's always good to stick in the classic Stephen Weinberg quote at these times.
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
the knowledge that life does not end after a few decades creates a long term view
Are you KIDDING me?! Who's going to care about the future of our planet when they don't think God would let things get too bad? Do Christians take into account the long term views of the rights of all people, including homosexuals, or do they try to suppress them and keep us living in the Dark Ages? Do they try to find cures to diseases, or do they halt research on Biblical grounds? Hmmm.
If life does only last a few decades, then it means more because it's all we get. One thing I've found it hard to understand is if you think there is a glorious eternal afterlife, why are you trying to get your backwards rules passed in this one? What difference will make it make to you whether gays marry or not when you're off enjoying heaven? (That's if you believe it is a sin- who knows, that part may be a metaphor too!)
open minded faith
Oxymoron.
That Big Bang theory, the one that best explains the current state of the Universe, you know, the one that you think believers don't want to investigate, was invented by a person that believed in God.....a Catholic Priest!! LOL
And algebra was invented by Muslims, but that's no reason to believe in Islam! Religious people have made scientific discoveries throughout history. Doesn't mean their religion is right. Did this particular finding support the Bible? Checking... checking... oh, it says here stars were made after the Earth. WHOOPS! It says stars are SET in the expanse of the sky/heaven, but they obviously move if the Big Bang theory is correct. Hmm, well no wonder so many Christians don't believe in the Big Bang. It goes against their book!
I am interested in further scientific investigation, especially with cool fascinating stuff like the early origins of the Universe.
And if it's found the Big Bang had a natural beginning, how much further back will your god have to be pushed?
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Staying a Christian Upon Leaving
by serotonin_wraith inso you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.
congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.
now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.
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serotonin_wraith
jgnat,
I cannot prove God's existence, because my experience is personal. My inability to prove it to others makes it no less real for me.
I tend to believe what people say about their personal experiences, whether it's hearing a voice they think to be God, or surviving a risky operation. I can just list off alternative explanations.
If there is only reason in a dog-eat-dog survival-of-the-fittest world, where is restraint? Where is good? What stops the individual from spreading their seed at the cost of the entire community?
A person of reason would conclude it is reasonable to do good, whether a god existed or not.
I do not believe that anyone who believes in a divine, all powerful being to be bound to a fabrication.
If I started listing off the gods and asking you whether you thought they were real, I don't think you'd be saying yes.
I rather believe that if there really is only one God, that if someone has chosen a religion different than mine, there must be a veneer of human perception coloring his view. As there must be over mine
Being a deist can get you out of tricky thoughts like that.
The Star Trek episodes gives us a hopeful future where humankind has overcome it's destructive divisiveness, disease and poverty are eradicated. Are these not principles worth following?
Absolutely! And where is God in this universe? Nowhere. Religion isn't helping us when it comes to divisiveness, disease and poverty. (In Star Trek they all understand evolution is true too.)
Gene Roddenberry didn't believe in a god. Here's an article you may find interesting- http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/human3.htm
If you haven't seen these episodes, I reccommend them-
In The Hands of the Prophets (DS9) - Holding back science for religious reasons.
Who Watches the Watchers? (TNG) - How a primitive tribe views what they can't understand.
Distant Origin (VOY) - "Evolution is just a theory!" say the 24th century dinosaurs.
It's by watching Star Trek that helped me see we need to stop believing in mythological things in order to move forwards. We're not going to be exploring the galaxy or making the Earth a paradise ourselves when half of Americans believe Jesus will be back any day now to do it for them.
A vivid imaginary life is absolutely necesarry in the development of children. As adults, we use our imaginations to test out alternative outcomes. It is good! I would maintain that use of our entire minds, not just our reason, is good for us.
I agree with you. I just think we should be able to differentiate between the two.
Was it reality or majority?
Both in the example you give. When something is seen as real, majority usually follows. I don't think animals should be killed for no good reason either. But I don't need to worship them to think that way.
What if the exiting JW has established a functioning, noble belief system after leaving? They do no harm to you, and they are happy, functioning human beings. Do you really believe your work is not done until all are stripped of all faith?
That would be fine, as long as they didn't try converting others. Ex-JWs could have the option not to join up, there would have to be no preaching done and they couldn't bring up their children in this belief system.
I would even maintain that for frailer older ones, they are better off in the society than out of it.
Yeah, that's a tricky one. It doesn't get to me that most of the people I look after will probably always believe in God (I work in a nursing home) because that's all they've known all their lives. (They also don't give money to the church or try to preach, so there's no danger). But others wouldn't want to be patronized, and whatever age they are, they would want to know reality. We didn't hold back from telling the elderly that scientists had changed Pluto to the status of a dwarf planet, even if they always believed it was just a regular one.
I don't mind talking to them about religion, but I don't try to deconvert any of them. They ask if I believe or if I'm going to join them for singing, and I say I don't believe. It's usually left at that. I answer any genuine concerns about my disbelief too. One lady asked me 'How can you work here if you don't believe in God?' so I explained I just didn't need to believe in a god to do good works.
Another lady (82 this sunday) brought up the topic herself and said she was questioning the whole thing so I lent her the book Letter to a Christian Nation. She said she enjoyed it and she thought the author hit the nail on the head. But she still joins in communion, and that's fine. It's her choice and it's what she's used to. But she said she's happy with the ritualistic side, to her it's not to get closer to God.
So it really depends on the circumstances.
As long as sister Martha and sister Sally support each other, drive each other to the meetings, gossip about the "new ones", wonder at the new light, and send soup to sister Jane in the nursing home, what is the harm?
To them, only that they have the wrong worldview. If they were doing it more out of fear of armageddon, I would be more concerned. I don't think people should live in fear, whatever their age.
The other problem too is that they are supporting a system that does much harm. They are the hard shell that surrounds and protects a more sinister side. It's hard to get to the bad stuff without breaking part of the shell.
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BurnTheShips,
If you would listen instead of writing it off as a foregone conclusion you would see he is not talking about fear of punishment but love of God as a motivation for good. Not fear, love. Not fear, love. Get it??
I was referring to love too. Yes it is terrible to do good only because you love a supernatural entity.
Once you think you have all the answers you stop growing.
That's what I try telling people who think God started the Big Bang. They stop looking for the real answer.
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Staying a Christian Upon Leaving
by serotonin_wraith inso you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.
congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.
now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.
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serotonin_wraith
writetoknow,
I could start postings today and until forever the quality studies that have shown God's word as truth.
Please do. This is the whole point. Give me just ONE reason to think the Bible is really God's word. You can't just make a bold statement like that and then provide NOTHING to back yourself up.
But as any reasonable person can see from comments in this thread it would be discluded as junk.
The evidence would speak for itself, surely?
there a people that can post forever things they believe disproves the bible and it would not matter on bit to a person that has a relationship with God and Christ.
What I find frustrating is that you can't explain what the human fossils are. When you look at them, what happens? Do you suddenly go blind? Do you think your eyes are tricking you because your brain couldn't handle the fact 'Adam' was NOT the first man? This is crazy, you obviously have a mind that is completely closed off. You dishonest fool. There's no getting through to people like you. Thank you very much for keeping the human race dumb.
And people wonder why all these 'new atheists' seem angry!
There is a river of hate held for Christian teachings veiled very thinly
I don't try to hide it. I just try to remain calm enough to have discussions about it. If the Christian teaching is to discriminate and lie to children (which it is), then I absolutely do hate it, yes. I have good reason to hate it.
The person trying to disprove "Faith" take on a superior attitude and a condescending veiw of people of faith.
Who's disproving faith?
They make comments about my mom
It was not ABOUT your mom in the way you're making out, I used your mom in an example. I could have picked any bad event for that example. I wasn't doing it to offend your mother's memory. I didn't know she'd passed away.
The point is these imaginary agruments
They look real to me. Oh wait. Even if something is staring you in the face it may still be imaginary, like the fossils you ignore.
save mankind from religion is a world of unreality for people that have based their whole life on doing good for other because they love God.
What a terrible reason to do good! For a reward, or to avoid punishment. Is belief in God the only thing that makes you want to help people? If you'd turn to a life of crime if you stopped believing in God, then please carry on believing.
It is a direct insult to men and woman of faith that have given their life for others and sacrificed time money in service for other to concluded their acts of faith and love is done because they are too weak minded and uneducated to understand what they are really doing.
I'm not insulting any good they do, I'm saying their reasons aren't real or needed.
it is a sicking insult to the thousands of faithful Christain that lost their lives at the hands of the Romans and cruel dictators of our recent world to state they were fools for doing so.
Dying for ones religion doesn't make it true. People of all religions have been killed. Are you suddenly going to become a practising Jew because millions were killed in Nazi Germany? Seen the news recently on the persecution of Buddhist monks? I guess that's true too, right?
A person of no faith cannot see
GodThor having a personal relationship with His children the loving and kind care He has for them.Blah.
Yet when some one states they have walked with
GodThor for years and love him as their best friend and have a personal relationship withGodThor. People like some on this post think a person is uneducated and to stupid to know what a relationship is.Uh-huh.
I promise you this one day you will long for those people to be a part of your life. They are rich with love and wisdom through their faith in God.
I'm not enemies with them. We disagree on god belief. Does disagreeing with someone over something automatically make them an enemy? Nope.
I have witnesses it in my own life time all this hate for people that love God.
Get off your high horse, I don't hate you. I hate the poison you believe about God.
I am further sadden that some think because JW's were wrong or they were wronged by them as I was that a person has no faith in God.
Who thinks that? Not me.
so many are easy prey for post like this.
It's up to whoever's reading it to make up their own mind.
Thanks for the pasted article. It's saying faith is good because the Bible says faith is good. I shall go to church now based on that wonderful argument.
New rule now before I answer any of the other points you make. Look at the link of fossils and explain what you see there. Show that you're not as closed minded as I think you are. Otherwise I'm wasting my time talking to someone who refuses to be open about this.