Posts by serotonin

100

Staying a Christian Upon Leaving

by serotonin_wraith in

so you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.

congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.

now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.

serotonin_wraith

Thanks jgnat,

I'm okay. It kinda hit me writing the Thor post how depressing the situation seems. I think you would be depressed too if 80% of the most powerful country in the world believed in Thor. If you say there are no reasons to believe in Yahweh, then you yourself are putting him on exactly the same footing as Thor. But I expect you think there is a difference. To you there is a difference, I understand that. In your head there is a difference. But there is not actually any real difference, which you admit when you say there's no more reason to believe in one over the other. You could read that paragraph over and over and I don't think the penny would drop.

If the US president said tomorrow morning he had started to believe in Thor, you'd probably spit your coffee out. Why? Because you think there is a difference. One is real to you, the other is obviously false. But when asked to show the difference, you can't. You even say there is no difference. So why the contradiction? Either there is a difference, and you could share that. Or there is no difference, and all gods are true, or all gods are false. If one god doesn't have a stronger foundation than the others, then they ALL fall like dominoes. Yours isn't left standing, because there is no reason for it to.

You say "It is obvious that you consider anyone who believes in a divine, all-powerful being to be bound to a fabrication" and the funny thing is, you agree with me, just as long as it's belief in the thousands of other gods and not your own.

I love sci-fi / fantasy. It can certainly open up our minds. Plenty of good can come from it... (and you may be able to guess what I'm going to say here) ...but we do not consider it good to actually believe it happened! Is it good for someone to really believe the vulcans are watching us, or that a secret ring under Cheyenne mountain sends military personell to other planets? It's a no-brainer, we see that kind of belief as mad, and rightly so.

Having a warped view of reality is a danger in itself. That's the bare minimum amount of danger belief in things we can't prove can have on us. If children have imaginary friends we say that's cute, but what happens if they don't give up those friends as they get older? Do we get them professional help or do we say 'ah never mind'? The answer probably depends on whether or not we're religious.

Are you happy that humans broke free from believing in the thunder god, or the sun god? Would you have been happier living in a world where 80% of your country still believed in them? Something must have changed back then when they gave up those beliefs. Reality finally won out, thankfully. Faith would have kept us all worshipping rocks today if it hadn't been ignored in the end.

I'm optomistic because there does seem to be a change now. People are seeing reasons are failing, and they aren't always using faith then. I'm in a country where only 10% of people go to church, and I doubt that number's ever going to rise again. I saw a poll recently that showed 25% of 18-24 year olds in the US now consider themselves atheist. It could be because these kinds of debates are having an effect.

I know you may not like to hear this, but I do hope to see the day when people who believe in Yahweh are treated exactly the same as anyone who believes in Thor nowadays. Afterall, there is no more reason to believe in one over the other. Reason doesn't come into it.

About this bit from before:

So, if you were concerned about overpopulation and believed that anyone having more than one child is contributing to the world's demise, would you chastize mothers of more than one child? Why or why not?

I would not, because these children cannot be put back in the womb and I wouldn't want them killed, so what good would it be to repeatedly tell the mother they haven't helped us? With beliefs, we can change these. We all used to believe in the teachings of the JWs and now look at us. Our change of beliefs helped us, we stopped believing in those false comforting things and we stopped supporting a system that leads to suffering for many people around the world. The change may have been hard, but we're happy about it now. I don't think any of us would want to still be living a lie- we wanted what was real instead. It was more important than a fantasy. But replacing one fantasy with another? No thank you.

100

Staying a Christian Upon Leaving

by serotonin_wraith in

so you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.

congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.

now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.

serotonin_wraith

Let's imagine what this thread may have looked like if Thor was the most popular god in the world today.

I believe in Thor, because how else would all those clouds get in the sky? They can't have just come from nothing! Look at how complex they are, there must have been a designer. Look at the thunder and lightning too, that's got tremendous force, and that shows just how powerful Thor is. I was fooled into joining the Thor's Witnesses- that group isn't serving Thor correctly. But now I'm free and I have a special bond with Thor.

Thor has been disproved. We already know why we get clouds and thunderstorms.

No, you can't disprove Thor.

I can. Here is a site showing how clouds form ...

The water cycle is just a theory. Clouds can't make themselves!

It is a fact.

The scientists have it completely backwards. Clouds make water, water does not make clouds. What idiots! Look at how beautiful clouds are. How could something so beautiful have come from a natural event? We all know the story- Thor got mankind to name all the different kinds of clouds. That's in the Book of Thor.

99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% and more of all clouds that have ever been are now gone!

Thor has his reasons, who are you to question what he does? Are YOU Thor? You self righteous Thor denier!

Can you please explain how we get steam when water boils in the kettle?

...
I have faith in Thor. I don't NEED any evidence. That's what faith is. Duhh! Besides, what's so bad about believing in Thor?

It's not real for one. At some point we're all going to have to stop believing in Thor.

You'll be sorry when you end up in Thor's hell! Just you wait!

Thor has been disproven. Look at the evidence. Here's another danger for you- (I'm not sure how many dangerous things have to be pointed out when belief in something that's not true is reason enough to want it stopped to begin with but...) there are Thor worshippers trying to get the teaching that Thor makes clouds and controls the weather taught along with the water cycle teaching in school.

Well the water cycle hasn't been proven so why not?

It HAS been proven! I have already shown you the evidence!

Well, my whole family believes in Thor. I know Thor is real because of what I've seen in life. He has given me signs personal to me. When I wanted to go out it was raining, and then all of a sudden Thor let the sun shine through and the clouds disappeared, right in front of my eyes! I can't tell you how many times that has happened in my life! It strengthens my faith in Thor. How come so many people have had experiences like that?

Millions of people in the middle east believe in Zeus and think he uses the weather to help their crops grow. Many have seen shapes in the clouds that mean something to them personally.

Zeus worshippers are wrong. It's only the fastest growing religion because they are having so many babies. They have no proof for Zeus. Anyway, why are you forcing your beliefs on us?

I'm not. I've written this down in a thread on a forum and you have chosen to click it and read it. Nobody has forced you to do anything.

SW, I think you are looking for a reason to believe in Thor. I hope one day Thor speaks to you and lets you know he exists.

Riiight.

You only want others to think like you do because it gives your beliefs backing. That's why you're going on about it. Don't forget, you're only 25. Wait until you're older and wiser. I am going to pray to Thor for you tonight.

I appreciate the gesture, but which part of Thor has been disproven isn't sinking in? Thor isn't real because you want him to be real.

Look, belief in Thor gives me comfort. I need to know there's someone controlling the weather. Otherwise, anything could happen.

What, like a hurricane that kills thousands of people?

That's rare, and it's all part of Thor's plan. You have to accept there will be bad along with the good, otherwise how would we even know what good is? We can appreciate all the good the weather brings because we have an opposite to compare it to. Makes perfect sense.

Why isn't anyone looking at the evidence?

SW, the smarter Thor worshippers today accept the water cycle theory. It is true that the weather controls itself, but this is exactly how Thor set it out. He started the ball rolling, as it were.

Then why does the Book of Thor say Thor controls all weather at all times? Why does it also say clouds came before the Earth, when modern science shows they came after the Earth formed?

That cannot be taken literally. It is a metaphor. Not all of the Book of Thor is to be taken literally. Progressive Thor worshippers understand this. We are smart.

I don't know how you got THAT from the Book of Thor.

SW, I agree with all of your comments, but these people have faith. Something you may never understand. I don't think you should be trying to get people to abandon their beliefs and replacing them with your own personal opinions.

They are not my personal 'opinions'. It is reality, backed up with mountains of evidence that people are refusing to look at because they can't let go of Thor. Zeus worshippers and Thor worshippers have been at war for a long time, and we now have the power to destroy the planet. Unless people speak up and address EVERYONE who believes in these disproven gods, we may not survive.

That's not going to happen. Thor wouldn't let this planet get destroyed!

I feel like screaming, I really do.

Just popping back to say I know Thor is real, and I've heard enough of this Thor denier 'crap' over the past few years, and I can't change because I have faith. I'm sorry if that offends you.

I'm going to be polite because you are 80 years old, and out of everyone here you'd probably have the harder time looking at a lifetime of Thor belief with a rational mind. The evidence for the water cycle was around years before you were born too, unfortunately. You have lived with the wrong worldview, but I'm trying to make a difference so that our children won't live a lie too. Thank you for your time.

That was condescending SW, she is a good person and she doesn't feel like she's lived a lie. Many Thor worshippers live wonderful lives and do some amazing things for others. Look at all the smart Thor believers.

The reasons for doing good things was already there. Belief in Thor is not needed. Look at all the smart Zeus believers.

I admit I was fooled once when I was with the Thor's Witnesses, and I truly believed I was going to be with Thor in paradise. Even knowing I am quite capable of having the fog pulled completely over my eyes, and I'm glad others told me what was real in order for me to escape and see what I believed was false, I'm still going to give you a hard time for what you're trying to do.

I know I'll get no thanks from you, but perhaps future generations will look back at this time and thank all Thor deniers for having the courage not to respect Thor belief and instead to speak up and try to show people it is false.

_________________

Wouldn't it be incredible if this was the type of situation we found ourselves in?

Oh.

Wait.

This IS the situation we're in.

_____________________________________

I'll answer all the points from Christians later, or maybe tomorrow. I feel depressed. It would probably match what was in the Thor situation anyway. Just swap a few things around and you may see my answer to you.

100

Staying a Christian Upon Leaving

by serotonin_wraith in

so you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.

congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.

now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.

serotonin_wraith

Thanks for giving your side Mouthy, you don't offend me at all. It's just your religious beliefs I don't agree with.

Finally-Free, another one to consider.

What I despise is anyone, of any persuasion, trying to shove their shit down the throats of others.

So do you think schools should be shut down too? That's where I was given the evidence for evolution and learnt many other interesting facts. Teachers 'forced their shit' on me.

I'm off for a day now. Night!

100

Staying a Christian Upon Leaving

by serotonin_wraith in

so you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.

congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.

now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.

serotonin_wraith

F-F, When it affects the suffering of humans, it becomes my business. When it could affect our very survival, it concerns all of us.

KKK members wanted blacks put to death. Well it's their beliefs, let's not knock that.

Nazis wanted Jews gassed. Ehh, why not let them? It's their beliefs.

Muslim extremists want the world converted to Islam, and will try to kill anyone who doesn't like that. Well we'd better not bitch about that, had we? Their beliefs should be respected.

Christians want to teach our children myths and lies and prevent life changing cures being developed. Let's allow that. Afterall, they believe.

100

Staying a Christian Upon Leaving

by serotonin_wraith in

so you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.

congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.

now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.

serotonin_wraith

writetoknow,

You stated that we must reject God because people where killed in the bible that is your standard for rejecting God.

I didn't.

God never stated any where that He does not kill people. Nether does any govenment - you think because it is God you have a choice if He can kill people, but the same does not apply to the United States - you may not like it but it is a fact of life.

How can I possibly think this if I don't believe in God?

there are millions of Chirstian that never believed they could kill anyone even JW's believe that - history is full of Chirstian that did not.

There are millions of JWs who do not abuse children and who have never been forced to prevent their children having blood, but their monetary contributions and insistence on converting people keeps the system alive in which these things do take place.

I'm sure there have been some nice Thor worshippers but we don't lie to our children and tell them Thor controls thunder.

You stated Zeus worshiper never killed anyone

I did not say that.

My point is you don't like Chirstain so make your point and I am stating what you judge will be judge back.

An empty threat may work on you, but it does not work on me. There are nearly 3,000 gods available, so if there is a god, chances are you're worshipping the wrong one anyway.

You don't care about those gods, because you have no reason to believe in them. Just as I have no reason to believe in yours.

the bible has been disproven, by who?

Modern science. Are you reading my posts at all? Did you click the link I gave you? I've already presented the evidence.

the bible has been proven to those that believe in it.

If it is 'proof' that only convinces themselves, it is more likely to be a delusion.

So faith is based on what you can see like love you can see people loving people?

Faith is believing in things with no reason at all.

Will billions of people on this earth have confessed faith in God so there must be a God?

Billions of people believing in something does not make it true. Did Jesus really return in 1914 because 6 million JWs think he did? Nope. Did a flying horse take Mohammed to heaven because millions of Muslims think it happened?

So let see if I have it yet because you don't believe in God or you don't have enough faith there is a God then there is no faith or no God.

Faith exists. There is no reason to believe in a god and I don't rule out the possibility completely (same with faries and fishes riding bicycles). As for the Christian God, this one has been disproven.

So you have an imaginary friend as well "No God" when judgment day comes will you still think there is "No God"?

Do you have imaginary friends called 'No Allah', 'No Thor', 'No Zeus', 'No Ra', 'No Apollo', 'No flying spaghetti monster', etc, etc? I'd laugh if you did. And again with the threats. How can there be a judgement day involving a disproven god? It must be terrible living life wondering if you're going to see tomorrow or not. I'm sorry you were fooled into believing that. The less people are paranoid about their minds being read by this 'thought policeman' the better off our species will be.

What your really stating your superior that your smarter then people that have faith and if they still believe in God they are foolish and weak minded.

Would you consider yourself smarter than someone who believed invisible pixies lived under their beds? I hope so.

if you can get people to believe your way then your faith in your beliefs are reinforced.

I don't use faith for anything. The evidence backs up my beliefs.

lalliv01-

What I was trying to say is that faith just IS and you can't knock it out of people.

More people now are finding religion doesn't have a leg to stand on and are accepting reality. It's a personal decision, but unless people hear all the arguments they can't make an informed decision.

Cockroaches,lions, apes, none of these creatures
have the ability to love,hate,to ponder their past or their future

There are many nature programs around that show animals do seem to care for others or hate when appropriate.

or to exercise faith, only man has this ability, this trait.

And in this sense we are certainly less evolved. Our brains have evolved to the point where we like to seek knowledge. Unfortunately, some of us cannot wait for evidence and like to make stuff up.

Imagine life where
everything,everything, is done based on logic. I daresay, mankind would cease to exist.

Well Sweden is 90% atheist and they still seem to be around. We can use our imaginations and have emotions, sure. And we all seemed to cope okay when we left other gods behind through the ages. We grew intellectually when we did this.

I also don't recall mentioning the bible in what I said. The circular reasoning is on your part I believe. You see, it's nature that made us this way,having faith is natural.

Then it is also nature that leads to humans saying faith is a bad trait.

I'm sorry if you weren't referring to Christianity. I assumed the title of the thread would have led the conversation down a Christian path. No worries.

100

Staying a Christian Upon Leaving

by serotonin_wraith in

so you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.

congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.

now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.

serotonin_wraith

writetoknow, you are completely missing the points and putting things in my mouth which I have not said. I have to go out now, so I'll try to clear up this mess you've made when I get back. I'm wondering if it's worth it though. I think most who read this will be able to see what you're doing, and I'd rather not dumb myself down.

100

Staying a Christian Upon Leaving

by serotonin_wraith in

so you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.

congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.

now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.

serotonin_wraith

So are you saying because some one dies there is no God? Because bad things happen to good and bad people that proves there is no God? By the way my Mother passed a number of years ago from cancers.

I'm sorry to hear about your mother. I'm saying that good and bad things happen to everyone regardless of whether or not they believe in a god, so there doesn't appear to be a god who is taking an interest in us personally.

No body in my family doubt God.

Nobody in a Muslim family doubts Allah. Nobody in a Mormon family doubts Jesus travelled to America. No one on Earth doubted our planet was flat before.

All the gods of the past have blood tied in someway from their worship through government. No my friend God is no Santa Claus giving every one a life without problems your reading the wrong book the bible never states that.

I'm saying that you have no reason to think God is with you through life. Why pray to God for help if you already know he doesn't involve himself?

Christianity does have blood on its hands too.

Life isn't fair with or without God if you have no God man would still do ugly act in some other name.

So would you not lock up a murderer because another murderer is bound to come along anyway?

Furthermore, you cannot prove there no God through your theory no more then you I can prove there is to people that have made you their mine.

I don't quite understand what you've written here, but if you're saying I haven't disproved the Biblical God, can you please explain these:

http://www.msu.edu/~heslipst/contents/ANP440/

And your wrong to conclude that all people that have been rejected from some form of man's religion no longer believes there is a God many have better relationship and understanding of God. They realize God is not the Santa Claus and actually come to love Him more.

I haven't said that. Now, if you can give me one more reason to believe in God over Santa, I will say no more.

Direct me to some Zeus worshippers and I will speak to them about their unfounded beliefs.

100

Staying a Christian Upon Leaving

by serotonin_wraith in

so you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.

congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.

now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.

serotonin_wraith

Read your manual again.

Exodus 21:15
"Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death.

Exodus 21:17
"Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

Exodus 22:19
"Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death.

Exodus 22:20
"Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed.

Exodus 31:14,15
" 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

Exodus 22:18
"Do not allow a sorceress to live.

Leviticus 20:10
" 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

Leviticus 20:13
" 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Leviticus 20:27
" 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "

Leviticus 24:14
"Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him.

Leviticus 24:16
anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 17:2-5
If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Deuteronomy 13:2,5
and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,"
That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

Killing is definitely justified in the Bible. While there are scriptures to show that the ritualistic laws may no longer apply, these moral laws still apply and were applied well after Jesus' time. You can find good things in the Bible, but there is no denying you can also find bad things. It can be used to justify anything. The fact that most Christians do not act this way doesn't come from a better understanding of the books, but rather their personal choice not to harm others. One cannot say the 'extremists' are going against what their holy books teach. They are not.

100

Staying a Christian Upon Leaving

by serotonin_wraith in

so you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.

congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.

now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.

serotonin_wraith

So the test stone to reject Christ is what religion has done and for that reason there is no God?

No. The reason to reject Christianity is because the Bible has been disproven.

Do you say Zeus isn't real because you were lied to by the JWs? I doubt it. You just have no reason to believe in Zeus, so you don't. Does this make you smug? Not really. I apply the same rules to Yahweh.

If you could show me a car manual that instructs drivers to kill people you may have a case, but deaths caused by cars and other things are a bi product of their true function.

The Bible gives specific instructions on how to treat certain people. The verse 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' led to people being burned for hundreds of years. Homosexuals are still fighting to get gay marriage made legal because this disproven book says it is wrong.

You think you have an imaginary friend with you because you want to believe that. Life can be good at times, and bad at other times, but whatever happens, you still think God is with you. If your mother was shot in the head tomorrow, you'd still think God was with you. If you found money under a rock tomorrow, you'd probably think God led you to it. Anything at all could happen in your life, and I doubt it would have much effect on whether you believed in God. But you believe because you are ignoring the evidence and wanting it to be true. That's what it comes down to.

100

Staying a Christian Upon Leaving

by serotonin_wraith in

so you found out the jehovah's witness religion/cult was bogus.

congratulations, it's a step in the right direction.

now all you have to do is escape the cult of christianity.. while other christian groups are (perhaps arguably) less controlling (on the whole), the foundation christianity rests on is bogus too.

serotonin_wraith

lalliv01,

Faith is the fallback position, and it should not be held up as a virtue. There are a couple of ways to respond to the claim it is. Firstly, if faith is a virtue, could you name just one other thing apart from God you believe in with no evidence or reason? After some thought, you'll find there is nothing. You demand good reasons, and if there are none available, you will tend to think those who use faith in things such as faries, Zeus, invisible unicorns or reptiles living in the centre of the Earth are deluded. For some unknown reason, you don't stay consistent when it comes to God.

Secondly, where does it say faith is a virtue? The Bible. So you are using the Bible to believe in the Bible. This kind of circular reasoning is ridiculous.

We don't know what happened before the Big Bang. Until we find out, why not accept we don't know yet? What's so terrible about not having all the answers? You cannot know there is a god, so why act like you do know?

GentlyFeral,

Either the Bible is the word of God or it is not. If you concede there are errors in the Bible, then you cannot know which parts are true and which parts are not. It all comes down to what you want to be true. Take the rules against homosexuality- you cannot say your God didn't really mean they were sinning. On what could you possibly base that?

To take the story that God made Adam and Eve 6,000 years ago from dirt and a rib, and think that means God made it so humans would evolve from other species over millions of years is astounding. The genealogical line from Adam to Jesus falls apart, the idea Adam was the first man on Earth falls apart. Nobody sinned for thousands of years (oh, and none of the animals had names either!), and then in a magical garden two humans sinned and God suddenly gave the millions of other humans alive on the Earth shorter lifespans and set up a system in which they would all have to be redeemed? It was only just over 6,000 years ago that snakes weren't crawling on their bellies?

To think the account of the sun being created on the 4th day really means it was created millions of years BEFORE the Earth is astounding too. By wanting the Biblical god to be true, you're basically rewriting the Bible in your head!

serotonin_wraith

Posts by serotonin_wraith