dozy

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Posts by dozy

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  288

  Did the heavenly calling cease in 1935? Not anymore!

  by AnnOMaly in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  watch out for the questions from readers in the may 1st 2007 watchtower.

  "when does the calling of christians to a heavenly hope cease?

  " it's a good'un.. included are the statements:.

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  dozy

  ***

  w822/15p.30pars.14-15"WhatPreventsMefromGettingBaptized?"***

  In time the prescribed but limited number of 144,000 would be reached. After this no more would be anointed by holy spirit as witness that they had the heavenly hope, unless, in a rare occurrence, the unfaithfulness of one of the remaining ‘chosen ones’ made a replacement necessary.—Romans 8:16; 11:19; Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-5.

  15

  When we consider how Jehovah has been dealing with his people during the ‘harvest period,’ it seems evident that the heavenly calling in general was completed about the year 1935, when the hope of the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:9-17 was properly understood to be an earthly one... Logically, Jehovah would select someone who had been associated for many years and who had displayed endurance and loyalty under trial, rather than someone who had only recently become a baptized disciple of Jesus and perhaps was yet unproved in many respects.

  No mention in the new article of a "spirituality threshold" for new anointed ones. And when , as it must , the literal application of 144K goes , then that will be a HUGE doctrinal change with tremendous implications.
• 
  288

  Did the heavenly calling cease in 1935? Not anymore!

  by AnnOMaly in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  watch out for the questions from readers in the may 1st 2007 watchtower.

  "when does the calling of christians to a heavenly hope cease?

  " it's a good'un.. included are the statements:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dozy

  Without wishing to drag this thread out , I do feel that there is strong evidence of division in the Writing committee and (presumably) the GB over this issue. The QFR contradicts the April 1st 2007 WT (which speaks about the "diminishing number of anointed") , the new Memorial April 2nd 2007outline with its renewed emphasis on ensuring that all in the audience are aware that they shouldn't partake and the new revised Revelation book which has several references to 1935 and the ending of the choosing of anointed ones egC hap. 19 p. 117 Sealing the Israel of God ***The general selection of the true Israel of God proceeded from the day of Pentecost 33 C.E. down to 1935 when, at a historic convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Washington, D.C., emphasis was shifted to the ingathering of a great crowd with earthly life prospects (Revelation 7:9)

  It is notable that on several recent occasions , the London Bethel have had to stop WT print runs following urgent phone calls from Brooklyn because of changes in a couple of sentences - on one occasion having to pulp hundreds of thousands of printed Watchtowers - something unheard of in the past. (Some Bethelites have stashed away the original Watchtowers - look for them on Ebay shortly!) There is clearly a strong doctrinal debate going on behind the scenes.
• 
  288

  Did the heavenly calling cease in 1935? Not anymore!

  by AnnOMaly in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  watch out for the questions from readers in the may 1st 2007 watchtower.

  "when does the calling of christians to a heavenly hope cease?

  " it's a good'un.. included are the statements:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dozy

  I agree with other posters that it is significant that there isn't a single reference to "144,000" in this article. Especially if there is a big jump in "anointed" ones , I can see this number being relegated to a figurative one. Indeed - just had this draft passed to me by an "inside source"

  Private & Confidential - GB & Bethel Heavies only

  Question From Readers January 15th 2008 (JW edition) (Provisional draft for sign-off by GB (2/3 majority required))

  Should the number of anointed be understood as a literal 144,000 (Rev 14:1)

  "Many of Jehovah's people have felt that the number chosen to be anointed would be restricted to a literal 144,000. Does this seem reasonable , in the light of increasing blessings upon Jehovah's people and knowldege as we near the end of this system? In view of the large number who were partaking in the first century and the many thousands during these last days , it would seem that this number may well be understood more accurately in a figurative sense. A further study of Rev 14 indicates that just as the priestly divisions are figurative , so also the 144,000 may well be better understood in these terms. What is certain , however , is that this number is most certainly smaller than the great crowd , as Jesus spoke of a little flock and the number of Kings and Priests would necessarily be less than the number of subjects.

  How should we feel about this increased light? Truly we rejoice at our enlightened understanding , and , regardless of our hope , serve God unitedly under the direction of his Governing Body."
• 
  288

  Did the heavenly calling cease in 1935? Not anymore!

  by AnnOMaly in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  watch out for the questions from readers in the may 1st 2007 watchtower.

  "when does the calling of christians to a heavenly hope cease?

  " it's a good'un.. included are the statements:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dozy

  It is an interesting change - I think that it reflects dynamics in the writing committee (perhaps with Jaraz out of the way). The new Memorial outline (which I have seen) is very strong on telling the audience not to partake , so in a sense , this QFR even trumps the Memorial talk.

  JWD posters tend to view the WTS in very cynical terms , but I take them largely at face value as being competely immersed and fully believing these doctrines (other than perhaps a few power hungry individuals). What they have tried to do is react to the growing numbers of "anointed ones" and admit that all of these can't be frauds or replacements. It also opens up 2 or 3 much needed appointments for the GB.

  They also take the opportunity to re-emphasize the authority of the GB. The "Armaggeddon scenario" for the WTS is that a few anointed ones (in a kind of Ewatchman style coup) gather together their own group and proclaim their own authority. There is no reason why this group would have any less authority than the GB. What makes one group of a dozen partakers any different from another group?

  I agree with other posters - the average R & F JW couldn't care less about these changes & the WTS has cleverly not put this through in a study article where it might receive greater prominence and promote wider discussion. Sadly to the "thinking" JW it reinforces the image of a leadership that doesn't have a clue and has no greater insight than anyone else (as they actually state in the article).

  The real concern is that this opens up the floodgates to anointed status. I know several people who "think" that they are anointed but won't partake because they know that they will be viewed with suspicion. I originally (and correctly!) predicted a small rise last year http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/123704/1.ashx. The timing is too tight this year as the WT article won't be in general release until after the Memorial , but I would expect a rise of up to 1,000 in 2008 now that the stigma of partaking has been removed.
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  85

  Ban on Jeans , T-Shirts & Shorts after the Convention

  by dozy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  apr km insert.

  "even during leisure time , such as when going out to eat after the programme , we should dress as befits ministers... and should not wear such clothing as jeans , shorts or t-shirts.

  what a witness this will give to the community.".

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  dozy

  Undercover: It doesn't change the control factor of the WTS, but the way it's worded here it comes across nothing short of a command. I wonder if the complete text would change it to more of a suggestion?

  Hey - are you suggesting that I'm using ellipses to take something out of context & subtely change the original passage - now where would you get that idea from?!

  Par 5 in full: Should we manifest a dignified appearance only when attending the programme? Remember that many will observe us wearing our convention badges while in the convention city. Our appearance should make us stand out from the general public. Therefore , even during leisure time , such as when going out to eat after the programme , we should dress as befits ministers who are in the city for the purpose of attending a Christian convention , and should not wear such clothing as jeans , shorts, or T-shirts. What a witness this will give to the community! Jehovah is pleased when our appearance bespeaks our role as ministers.

  The WTS have never really embraced jeans. Any character in the mags who wears jeans is usually a baddie. Even in the pictures of the new order , smart "chino" trousers are worn , even when digging gardens , attending to tractors or gathering bundles of fruit. There used to be brothers in pre-convention who would check to see if sisters jeans were too tight , and ask them to change if necessary.

  Further censure is given in Par 3 - "While the programme is in session , it is not the time for needless talking , text messaging , eating , or roaming the corridors."

  The whole tone of the article is very strong & controlling.
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  85

  Ban on Jeans , T-Shirts & Shorts after the Convention

  by dozy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  apr km insert.

  "even during leisure time , such as when going out to eat after the programme , we should dress as befits ministers... and should not wear such clothing as jeans , shorts or t-shirts.

  what a witness this will give to the community.".

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  2. 
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  dozy

  APR KM Insert

  "Even during leisure time , such as when going out to eat after the programme , we should dress as befits ministers... and should not wear such clothing as jeans , shorts or T-shirts . What a witness this will give to the community."

  WTS have banged on this theme for years , but this is the most specific that I have seen this requirement. Lots of brothers attend a BBQ at a campsite every year on the Saturday of the assembly - now they can't wear casual clothes. What do the WTS suggest they wear if it is hot? What about little Johnny eating his burger with mayo & ketchup - no jeans ,shorts or t-shirts allowed. Will they pay for the dry cleaning bill? Is it a "good witness" for onlookers to see people in hot weather having an outdoor meal in suits and ties - or will they think that JWs have gone completely mad?
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  45

  UK: JW harasses lesbian co-worker who may get 120,000 pounds

  by blondie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  shopworker in line for 120,000 after suffering homophobic bullying05.03.07 add your view.

  marlene bielak: suffered months of bullying at the hands of a colleague who disapproved of her homosexual lifestyle.

  a lesbian shop assistant is in line for more than 120,000 after leaving her job because of a colleague's taunts about her sexuality.

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  dozy

  Not dissimilar to this case - the man only worked for 8 days and got a 120K pay-out (I want that hourly rate!)

  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6353609.stm

  The key in these situations is that the employer needs to be on the ball to follow all procedures to the letter to reduce or eliminate liability. I'm surprised that Next have made such a foul-up in this case.

  As to the truth or otherwise of the allegations - who knows? The stockroom of a high street store can be a busy and volatile place. And having to listen to Morrisey all day - thats got to be worth 120K compensation by itself!
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  7

  A question for readers I always wanted to ask.

  by vomit in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  especially for british congs.

  since it is idolatrous to support a football team.

  be crazy into football, wearing a football strip with flags etc.

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  dozy

  Its like going to the church of football. i.e. the house of the very idol

  Or in the case of Elland Road, home of Leeds United - the house of the very idle!

  Seriously - I've never heard of anyone being hassled for wearing a football strip - national or club side - or being heavily into soccer. The only debate occasionally occured when some young kid wore a football strip sponsored by a brewery - some felt this wasn't appropriate.
• 
  14

  New invitation campaign for District Convention

  by dozy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  april km says that there is to be a new campaign again this year - clearly the wts feels that this is the way to go.

  i thought that the results last year were quite poor , but apparently in some countries , the dc venues were beseiged - the culture in some lands is that when you get an invitation to anything , you go.

  some people obviously don't get asked out much - not that i can relate to that personally , of course.... .

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  dozy

  April KM says that there is to be a new campaign again this year - clearly the WTS feels that this is the way to go. I thought that the results last year were quite poor , but apparently in some countries , the DC venues were beseiged - the culture in some lands is that when you get an invitation to anything , you go. Some people obviously don't get asked out much - not that I can relate to that personally , of course...
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  142

  Watchtower getting very Defensive over blood issue publicity....

  by kid-A in

  1. social
  2. current

  with the recent birth of a jw sextuplet "litter" .

  http://www.thestar.com/news/article/169562.

  possible need for blood transfusions clashes with jehovah's witness belief.

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  dozy

  First mention I've seen in the UK media - big article on page 3 of the Times:

  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1426576.ece