Posts by Sa2ne

  • theinfamousone
    35

    my favorite apologist theory....

    by theinfamousone in
    1. jw
    2. experiences

    have you ever gotteni nto an argument with a j-dub, or basically any hardcore bible thumper???

    have you ever brought up the fact that if he were so loving, god would not allow all the suffering we see on a day to day basis, never mind what the hungry children around the world are suffering?

    have u ever noticed what their responce will invariably be?.

    1. Sa2ne
    2. theinfamousone
    3. Sa2ne
  • Sa2ne
    Sa2ne

    I'm not insulted. It's difficult to break away from some of lingo and speech patterns drilled into me for 21 years. It's understandable.

  • theinfamousone
    35

    my favorite apologist theory....

    by theinfamousone in
    1. jw
    2. experiences

    have you ever gotteni nto an argument with a j-dub, or basically any hardcore bible thumper???

    have you ever brought up the fact that if he were so loving, god would not allow all the suffering we see on a day to day basis, never mind what the hungry children around the world are suffering?

    have u ever noticed what their responce will invariably be?.

    1. Sa2ne
    2. theinfamousone
    3. Sa2ne
  • Sa2ne
    Sa2ne
    It seems we're at a point where we know what it is that we don't agree on, which is a good stopping point. You feel that this decision on God's part -- allow total free will to the point of action that brings far-reaching consequences -- was righteous on his part. I could not agree with that. But there's not much more to be learned on it, it's just a matter of opinion. In my opinion. :-)

    I think that's a fair assessment. This has been, by far, the most civilized debate I've ever had on this board. So, thanks for your time and attention. I appreciate it.

  • theinfamousone
    35

    my favorite apologist theory....

    by theinfamousone in
    1. jw
    2. experiences

    have you ever gotteni nto an argument with a j-dub, or basically any hardcore bible thumper???

    have you ever brought up the fact that if he were so loving, god would not allow all the suffering we see on a day to day basis, never mind what the hungry children around the world are suffering?

    have u ever noticed what their responce will invariably be?.

    1. Sa2ne
    2. theinfamousone
    3. Sa2ne
  • Sa2ne
    Sa2ne

    Serendipity & jwfacts -

    Thanks for the welcome. I'm actually not new here. I joined in 2001 under the s/n "sunstarr", but I haven't signed on in a while and I forgot my password. I used to come to this site often, but I just got disgusted with the anti-God (specifically anti-Christian) mentality that was so prevalent on this board. I consider myself a Christian, as I have given my life to Christ and consider Him my Lord/God/Savior. I also believe in the Trinity, although I would choose the word "Tri-unity" to better fit my beliefs. I only really posted in this case because I stumbled across this thread and felt compelled.

    Again, thanks for the welcome.

  • theinfamousone
    35

    my favorite apologist theory....

    by theinfamousone in
    1. jw
    2. experiences

    have you ever gotteni nto an argument with a j-dub, or basically any hardcore bible thumper???

    have you ever brought up the fact that if he were so loving, god would not allow all the suffering we see on a day to day basis, never mind what the hungry children around the world are suffering?

    have u ever noticed what their responce will invariably be?.

    1. Sa2ne
    2. theinfamousone
    3. Sa2ne
  • Sa2ne
    Sa2ne
    This seems like such a leap of logic. To say that God MUST control a person's thoughts if he wants to take control of their actions. Can you explain why you believe those two things are linked?

    I guess I link the action to sin. Sin would be that which is the opposite of perfection. If God is preventing a person's actions, He is preventing the sin. However, according to the bible, even the thoughts are subject to sin. So, the thought and the action are linked in nature on the plane of sin. If God should exercise his power to control one sin, He MUST, by nature (perfection) exercise His power to control all sin (including thoughts that qualify as sin).

    Perhaps I misunderstood the original poster. I thought it was more of a "why do people use this as an argument for God?" type of thread, with the "Bible thumper" label more-or-less loosely applying to anyone with a similar type of god-belief. I could easily be wrong, but that was the impression I was under.

    And maybe I was mistaken. If so, my apologies. However, my argument (coming from a Christian point of view) centers around the Bible.

    On the free will point: I still don't see how your free will is impinged if God stops you from doing something you're not allowed to do. You've "willed" to do it, you've planned it out, you've done everything in the process except the actual doing it. I could see accusing God of impinging on your "free action" -- but he's certainly never claimed you were free to act in anyway you like. It would seem that in the scenario I describe, your free will would still be intact. Do you disagree, and if so, why?

    Again, I think we need to define some terms:

    will 1 n.

      1. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination.
      2. The act of exercising the will.

      I compare the term "free will" to that which was displayed in the Garden of Eden. It wasn't just the will of thought that brought about sin. It was also the action of taking and eating the fruit. It wasn't until after the fruit had been eaten that they original couple were cast from the garden. I see that God did claim that Adam and Eve were free to act in anyway they liked. Directly relating to the tree he said they would die in the day they ate from the tree. That implies that they were free to eat from it, but that there would be consequences.

    1. theinfamousone
      35

      my favorite apologist theory....

      by theinfamousone in
      1. jw
      2. experiences

      have you ever gotteni nto an argument with a j-dub, or basically any hardcore bible thumper???

      have you ever brought up the fact that if he were so loving, god would not allow all the suffering we see on a day to day basis, never mind what the hungry children around the world are suffering?

      have u ever noticed what their responce will invariably be?.

      1. Sa2ne
      2. theinfamousone
      3. Sa2ne
    2. Sa2ne
      Sa2ne
      We're not free to do what we want. We're constricted in every way. We can't fly unaided. We can't expand to 30 times our size. And in civilized societies we can't decide to kill someone and then go do it. We're not "free" to plot murder, so long as we understand we'll get punished for it. We simply can't do it. The only reason some people manage to do it anyway is because our crime prevention isn't good enough to detect the act in progress and stop it. God could, but he doesn't. When our technology allows us to stop people BEFORE they commit crimes, we will. (Oops, anyone thinking "minority report"?)

      Your argument is faulty in its terms. "Free will" assumes that the "will" exists inside reality. Of course we can't "will" ourselves to fly unaided or grow 30 times our size. That's not reality. Otherwise there wouldn't be such a term as "free will" because it would be redundant if compared against fantasy. Unless we could accomplish anything and everything, we couldn't attain "free will."

      According to the American Heritage Dictionary:

      free will
      n.
      1. The ability or discretion to choose

      Clearly, we are not able to choose that which is impossible.

      Your last point is a classic all-or-nothing bit. No, stopping a rapist doesn't in any way require me to also inhibit a person's thoughts. "Boy, I'd like to have sex with her" and actually planning to rape a woman are two very different things. (Regardless of what the Bible may say about it.) God could allow anyone to think anything, and only intervene when their actions impinged on another person's rights. Where do you draw the line? I don't, but then, I'm not God. Presumably, he would know where to draw the line.

      Again, the debate was set within the realm of the bible by the originator of this topic. Whether you care about what the bible says is irrelevant to my argument. A person's thoughts are subject to sin according to the bible. In order to submit to perfect justice, it IS an all or nothing. Otherwise, God would be accused of showing partiality in His justice, which would be less than perfect.

    3. theinfamousone
      35

      my favorite apologist theory....

      by theinfamousone in
      1. jw
      2. experiences

      have you ever gotteni nto an argument with a j-dub, or basically any hardcore bible thumper???

      have you ever brought up the fact that if he were so loving, god would not allow all the suffering we see on a day to day basis, never mind what the hungry children around the world are suffering?

      have u ever noticed what their responce will invariably be?.

      1. Sa2ne
      2. theinfamousone
      3. Sa2ne
    4. Sa2ne
      Sa2ne


      AlmostAtheist -

      It is indeed protecting a child. But it is also a violation of free will. In your example we do have free will today. You can plot to blow up a building. No one can stop you from plotting to do that. However, if you're caught, you are punished. I understand that some freedoms can be taken away. In that sense we don't have free will today. Neither do we practice perfect justice. Which is why a child rapist can get away with a six week jail sentence after being convicted.

      Free will is either "free" or it is not. If we are not "free" to do whatever we want, we do not have free will.

      Nonetheless, your example is still in conflict with point 1. If you stop a rapist from raping, you must also inhibit a person's thoughts when they desire another man's wife (a sin according to the bible).

    5. theinfamousone
      35

      my favorite apologist theory....

      by theinfamousone in
      1. jw
      2. experiences

      have you ever gotteni nto an argument with a j-dub, or basically any hardcore bible thumper???

      have you ever brought up the fact that if he were so loving, god would not allow all the suffering we see on a day to day basis, never mind what the hungry children around the world are suffering?

      have u ever noticed what their responce will invariably be?.

      1. Sa2ne
      2. theinfamousone
      3. Sa2ne
    6. Sa2ne
      Sa2ne

      theinfamousone -

      I've seen or heard this argument a million times. But I've never really heard a good solution to the bigger problem at hand. That is: What would you have God do? Keeping in mind two points:

      1. God is perfect in all things (including justice). As Paul writes, if you're guilty of one sin, you're guilty of all in God's eyes. So, how would you justify God destroying Hitler and not your neighbor who stole something from your back yard? On an even bigger scale, is there anyone who is guilt-free having never sinned? Should God destroy the whole world?

      2. We have free will. How could God "throw a blanket of love" (as I saw posted on another thread on this board) on all evil people without being in conflict with our freedom to choose what we do?

      If I understand you correctly, you don't believe in any God, god, etc... But working within the framework of the bible (which you established as the framework in your question: "bible-thumper"), what would you ask God to do without conflicting with the previous two points?