Posts by cynicus

the july 15th wt study some have been talking about (not sure of which issue of the wt is involved) was quoted as saying this, "when the israelites headed for freedom after spending 215 years in egypt, much of that time in slavery, a vast mixed company also went up with them.

(exodus 12:38) ".

cynicus

Hi Cynicus: Thanks for the research. So, then, I guess that I am to now presume that the Watch Tower Society is not out of its collective mind? Or could there be more? Thanks - Amazing

As far as chronology is involved the bOrg is pretty bonkers AFAIK. Occasionally someone posts here under the name COJ. He has written some excellent material on the subject and I'm sure you've enjoyed it as much as I did.

I'd say that 215 + 215 = 430 is mathematically pretty solid, but biblo-historically considered to be questionable.

21

WTS says 215 years - Bible says 430 - Which?

by Amazing in

jw
friends

215 years or 430 years?

the july 15th wt study some have been talking about (not sure of which issue of the wt is involved) was quoted as saying this, "when the israelites headed for freedom after spending 215 years in egypt, much of that time in slavery, a vast mixed company also went up with them.

(exodus 12:38) ".

cynicus

215 Years or 430 Years?

"The statement in Exod 12:40 that the people of Israel dwelt in Egypt for 430 years is also not without question. [footnote: The figure of 400 years for the same period found in Gen 15:13 (MT and LXX), in Acts 7:6 and in Josephus (Ant. 2,204; War 5.382), is most simply explained as a round number for the 430 figure. For a more complex assessment see Harold Hoehmer, "The Duration of the Egyptian Bondage", BSac 126 (1969): 308-316.)"

"If, however, a shorter and presumably more realistic estimate is made of the probable length of these generations [Bezalel; Elishama; and Joshua] a shorter sojourn can be supposed. A shorter genealogical sequence which also can point to a shorter sojourn is found in Exod 6:16-20 ... we are not told the age of Kohath when he went down into Egypt, if we suppose that his grandson, Moses, was born 80 years later, and if Moses was 80 years old al the exodus (Exod 7:7), we have a total of only 160 years for the sojourn in Egypt."

"In Exod 12:40 an actual textual variant in the Septuagint adds several words, so that the statement reads 'The time that the people of Israel dwelt in Egypt and the land of Canaan was four hundred and thirty years.' ... the Alexandrian-Jewish chronographer Demetrius (before 200 B.C.) ... understood that there was an exact division of the 430 years into 215 years in Canaan and 215 years in Egypt. The LXX text is apparently reflected also in Gal 3:17 which makes the 430 years cover the time from the promises from Abraham to the exodus and the giving of the law. Similarly, and perhaps in dependence upon Demetrius, Josephus states in one passage (Ant. 2:318) that the Israelites left Egypt '430 years after the coming of our forefather Abraham to Canaan, Jacob's migration to Egypt having taken place 215 years later.'"

"Gerhard Larsson (whose comparison of chronology in the MT and LXX indicates that alterations in the LXX are at points where the MT is difficult to understand or self-contradictory) finds a 430-year sojourn-period 'impossible', in the light of the Kohath/Amram/Moses sequence, and concludes that 'at most the period [of the sojourn] could be little more than 300 years' (footnote: Larsson, JBL 102 (1983) : 406). ... for the sake of an interesting possibility in connection with Joseph in Egypt we will add 14 years ... and set down the figure of 314 years."

The "connection with Joseph" mentioned above lines the biblical chronology up with an Egyptian manuscript, the Book of Sothis.

The above is taken from paragraphs 358-363 in Handbook of Biblical Chronology, by Jack Finegan (revised edition, 1999.

3

WTS VENDOR LIST - fascinating

by Amazing in

jw
friends

the following is taken from a list i have, but it shows some of the vendors that the society has dealt with on and off.

it is fascinating.

why am i publishing this?

cynicus

Hell Graphics Systems, Inc. Washington, NY

One of my favourite posters here consistently refers to the bOrg as the Watchtower Printing Corporation, you shouldn't be amazed :) that they have quite some business to do there. And hell, some people are called Hell.

http://www.hell-gravure-systems.com/yourpartner/drhell/drhell.html

For more stuff on font technology, some serious Heidelberg printing machinery, highend Linotype colour scanners etc. do a search on "linotype-hell" on your favourite search engine.

200

How Many States / Countrys Are Represented Here?

by Big Jim in

jw
friends

i am from houston texas myself.

cynicus

Amsterdam, the Netherlands.

31

Alleged Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus

by JanH in

jw
friends

most exjws are familiar with the claims that the gospel accounts about jesus "fulfills" around 300 prophecies in the old testament.

this claim is taken verbatim from christian fundamentalists.

checking out these so-called prophecies will reveal that they do not stand up to scrutiny.

cynicus

uncle_onion wrote:

Can anyone recomend any books that deal with the
"prophecies" and whether they fulfilled or not?

Callahan, Tim. 1997. Bible Prophecy - Failure or Fulfillment?, Millennium Press, Altadena CA, USA.

31

Alleged Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus

by JanH in

jw
friends

most exjws are familiar with the claims that the gospel accounts about jesus "fulfills" around 300 prophecies in the old testament.

this claim is taken verbatim from christian fundamentalists.

checking out these so-called prophecies will reveal that they do not stand up to scrutiny.

cynicus

I once battled --- when still dubious --- with an orthodox jew. He challenged me to prove that the Messiah is of anything else than a human nature (i.e. a spirit, angel, divine) using the Old Testament only. I thought "piece of cake", then I tried and failed*.

* Unless you're willing to agree to the usual WTPC bible hopscotch accompanied by a fine amount of 'Hineininterpretierung'.

20

American Identity

by Amazing in

jw
friends

i enjoyed englishman's post about americans vs europeans.

i chose to start a new thread because i want to take the topic in another direction.. the usa is still a young nation and an enigma.

the nation was created by european settlers who wanted to get away from things they did not like about europe, especially religious intolerance and inflexible governments, and have the opportunity to build a new future.

cynicus

I would ask one thing of all from around the world. Please try not to judge America by the handfull of Americans you may have met in your lifetime. This is a very diverse nation of over 280,000,000 people. We did not get this large because we spawn fast, but because on continuing immigration. Americans that travel abroad are not necessarily a good sampling of our nation as a whole.

I agree in principle with the statement above. It just makes me wonder why at least 10 million (metric that is) of those mentioned above, made a decision every day of the year 1999 with regard to the following:

http://talkshows.about.com/tvradio/talkshows/library/extras/bldayleaders99.htm

http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2001-04-16-springer.shtml

What made things worse however, is the following:

“Now entering its 9th season, the Jerry Springer Show is seen in more than 190 U.S. markets and is a hit in 50-plus foreign countries. The Jerry Springer Show has become the nation's No. 1 daytime series and the first talk show to beat Oprah Winfrey in more than a decade.”
-- from Jerry Springer Show

So from all the good things America brought us, amongst which we find IBM OS/2, Robert J. Oppenheimer, McDonalds, Harley Davidson, Fred Hall, Coca Cola, Britney Spears, the Watchtower, Apple, John McEnroe, Playboy, Kingdom Melodies vol. 3, and of course Viagra, we can now add Jerry Springer, Oprah, and Jenny Jones to that list of genuine American blessings.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

7

Kent & Info on WTS in the holocaust

by hawkaw in

jw
friends

kent,.

have you ever written the united states holocaust memorial museum ( http://www.ushmm.org/topics and brought to their attention any of the unbelievable facts that you and others have uncovered at your web site?

such as eric frost saving his skin and selling out the others, the 1934 yearbook, only 635 prison deaths that include 203 executed but now has suddenly become 1,000s, how it was all the churches fault even though a few 1,000 poor priests (at least 5 times more than jw victims) were executed in the camps etc.

cynicus

... In the standhaft.org article it is suggested that the original Gestapo/SS-documents were forged by the DDR Stasi. ...

After a more thorough read from a paper copy I need to correct the above. What I read was about a brochure that was especially published (by the MfS) to discredit Frost, as well as some letters allegedly sent to various Bethels around the world, which carried counterfeit signatures from prominent JW-deathcamp survivors.