Posts by ThomasCovenant

10

Estimated world population at the death of Adam

by jam in

2,800,000 according to lambert dolphin (physicist, theologin.

and senior creationist).

he base that figure that adam lived.

Text message from a bro at the hall I got this morning as I woke

by shakyground in

jw
friends

we miss you, hope to see you soon.

your dad will be wondering where you are at the resurrection.

love, bro.

ThomasCovenant

''Your dad will be wondering where you are at the resurrection''

No he won't. Maybe for a while but eventually he will completely forget you even existed or that he even had such a child. That way he can be happy in Paradise. If he ever remembered that he once had a child that didn't ''make it'' that would make him sad and as there won't be any sadness in the ''New System'' that particular memory will have to be completely erased. Lovely.

50

Ding dong with 4 JWs this morning

by Qcmbr in

the jws were out in our area this morning and i bolted downstairs before my wife could waive them away as she normally does.. two ladies (mum and 24 year old daughter i later found out) initially stopped as i opened with a comment about how i couldn't trust a thing they say because they are taught to practice theocratic warfare.. the mother blinked and asked me what that was ( so it began ) i informed them both that they are allowed to lie or at least be evasive with the truth with worldy people.

she countered that they are taught not to lie so i again asked her if she knew what theocratic warfare meant and she again said no (first of my many - 'please go look that up' statements .).

i then moved onto the idea that they couldn't think independently outside the organisation due to fear of being disfellowshipped and shunned.

ThomasCovenant

Tornapart.

Don't get me wrong. It took me a few years to eventually get out. Assuming you've been reading here a while you'll see that most go for the 'slow fade' for the sake of family and friends.

At first, when I was reading the old Society literature, the Reasoning book (lol what a beaut that book is) jwfacts.com, jwfiles.com, the old (now replaced) watchtower quotes site and wikipedia, then Crisis of Conscience, I felt incredible anger. This lasted for years. I eventually stopped my association overnight. I couldn't look my children or myself in the eye. Now I can.

I can't offer any advice but hopefully others will see this thread and your posts and give some thoughts. It's still early US time.

50

Ding dong with 4 JWs this morning

by Qcmbr in

the jws were out in our area this morning and i bolted downstairs before my wife could waive them away as she normally does.. two ladies (mum and 24 year old daughter i later found out) initially stopped as i opened with a comment about how i couldn't trust a thing they say because they are taught to practice theocratic warfare.. the mother blinked and asked me what that was ( so it began ) i informed them both that they are allowed to lie or at least be evasive with the truth with worldy people.

she countered that they are taught not to lie so i again asked her if she knew what theocratic warfare meant and she again said no (first of my many - 'please go look that up' statements .).

i then moved onto the idea that they couldn't think independently outside the organisation due to fear of being disfellowshipped and shunned.

ThomasCovenant

Hello Tornapart and thanks for joining the forum and commenting.

You raised some very interesting points.

You said ''You cannot tear someone's beliefs apart on the doorstep''. And yet that is the most basic operating system of Jehovah's Witnesses.

My mother (still a Witnesss) said to me ''why don't you just let us be with our religious beliefs?'' I said ''yes that's fine, but why don't you do the same to the people you door knock?'' Hypocrisy. Nothing else.

You said ''Did you get it all of your chest?'' Living a lie is a great burden so yes for me it felt great to get it off my chest.

You said ''What was your motive behind this?'' I can't speak for Qcmbr but for me it would be a valid response to someone who is coming to my door trying to tell me how I'm wrong and they are right.

You said ''Did it make you feel good?'' Again speaking for myself the answer would be 'yes'.

There is no one correct way because we are all different.

Thanks again and welcome, please keep asking and commenting.

13

How do you explain JW family members to an Non-JW Child?

by JAG913 in

jw
friends

i noticed a post or comment on here awhile ago explaining how someone explained their jw family members to their child (a non-jw).

we both really liked what was said, but can't find it again for the life of us!.

a brief explanation:our child's grandmother and extended family (aunts, uncles, etc.

ThomasCovenant

bttt for a friend who asked this question,

specifically how to explain to a child why their grandparents don't celebrate birthdays and Xmas.

3

Comparing time spent door to door preaching versus time spent door to door window cleaning

by ThomasCovenant in

jw
friends

i got to thinking this yesterday.

in the past i have done a fair bit of window cleaning like many a jw.

one motto that we (fellow jw window cleaners) used to say was ''time is money''.. occasionally, to help with pricing and efficiency we used to count and record how long each house would take.

ThomasCovenant

I got to thinking this yesterday.

In the past I have done a fair bit of window cleaning like many a JW. One motto that we (fellow JW window cleaners) used to say was ''time is money''.

Occasionally, to help with pricing and efficiency we used to count and record how long each house would take. As each house was completed we used to think we have just earned x amount an hour. But at the end of the day we would total up and then work out our hourly rate and it was always less than we thought the hourly rate was working out at. Of course this was because on average about 10 per cent of the day was spent travelling between houses rather than actually cleaning them. This was dead time.

Then I got to thinking that in the case of door to door preaching as enjoyed by JW's it is the other way around. At least 90 per cent of the time that is counted on their time reports is spent travelling between houses rather than actually talking to the householder.

What if they only counted time spent actually 'witnessing' rather than dawdling from door to door.

35

Will only "incorrigibly wicked" people be destroyed at Armageddon?

by poor places in

jw
friends

in a recent talk that i heard, a brother tried to comfort those whose family members have left jehovah's witnesses.

he did so by saying that only "incorrigibly wicked" people will be destroyed at armageddon.

i found his line of reasoning refreshing, especially in comparison with the usual fear-mongering in wt publications.

ThomasCovenant

If "Only Jehovah's Witnesses, ......have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system''

Then everyone else has NO HOPE of surviving.

There can be no other interpretation of this Watchtower quote.

Mr Freeze said, ''They [elders] said that God won't destroy all non-JW's. God will read hearts. I told them I would be happy to show them plenty of quotes from the watchtowers that say otherwise. They didn't want to hear it. So I brought the question on them. If God is judging people based on their heart, why should we preach? If it's not based on them becoming a JW, why preach to save lives?''

I thnk most Witnesses would answer the same as these elders. It is the only way to get through life. Those who dwell on, and believe the official belief as quoted above, eventually leave the Organization and many end up on this forum.

14

If JW commits suicide can funeral be held at KH?

by scooterspank in

jw
friends

ThomasCovenant

WT 15th July 1975

Questions From Readers
? What viewpoint does God's Word indicate that Christians should have toward suicide?

Jehovah as the source of life has decreed that human life is precious, sacred. (Gen. 9:5; Ps. 36:9) Hence, suicide, which means the taking of one's own life, or killing oneself, is condemned by the Bible. Such intentional act is self-murder. (Ex. 20:13; 1 John 3:15) The few suicides mentioned in the Bible are of those who were unfaithful to Jehovah and who failed to consider that their lives really belonged to God.-1 Sam. 31:4; 2 Sam. 17:5-14, 23; 1 Ki. 16:18; Matt. 27:5.

One who intentionally takes his own life does so in utter disregard for the sacredness of life; he becomes bloodguilty. When one commits suicide while in possession of one's mental faculties, this shows one to be void of morality, lacking faith, having no fear of God. It is a cowardly act, where one refuses to face up to the problems and responsibilities of life. If the person claimed to be a true Christian, the act would violently break his relationship with Jehovah. Suicide may be the giving in to pressures from demons who encourage self-destruction. (Matt. 17:14-18) This extremely self-centered act of murder manifests no love for one's surviving family members, no love for one's congregation and friends, and no love even for the surrounding community, as it brings shame and distress of mind upon all associates.-Mark 12:31.

In most countries it must be a public officer, sometimes called a coroner, who officially reports the cause of death. While a report of suicide may be submitted by the officer, yet it may not be in harmony with the facts. For example, in one such report of suicide, three weeks later clear evidence came to light that the death was due to a freak accident. So, circumstances must always be taken into consideration. Was there mental illness involved? Was the person in his right mind? Was he culpable or blameworthy? In many instances it is difficult to get to know all the facts.

What, then, should be the attitude of members of a Christian congregation as to attending funerals of reported suicides who may have been associated with the congregation? What about an elder who has received a request to conduct such a funeral? Where death appears to have been accidental, even though it was reported as a suicide or may have involved mental illness, the consciences of some members of the congregation may permit them to attend the funeral to comfort the bereaved ones. Also, it is left up to the personal decision of an elder whether he will conduct such a funeral upon request. However, the congregation may prefer not to sponsor such a funeral publicly or to have it in the Kingdom Hall because of the effect it may have on the uninformed community.

On the other hand, where it is a clearly established suicide, members of the congregation and elders may desire not to become involved in the funeral. In such cases arrangements would be left to the family itself for a private funeral where some member of the household might say a few words for the sake of the relatives. Furthermore, some may not desire to attend a funeral of one who is believed to have committed suicide where the funeral is conducted by someone other than a member of the congregation or by the funeral director himself at the request of the family.
As lovers of righteousness we leave the matter in the hands of a merciful, all-wise God as to any possible future for some of those driven to suicide. We who are lovers of life, holding every day of life sacred, endeavor to conduct our daily affairs and associations in a way that will merit the approval of the One who gave life to humankind.

14

If JW commits suicide can funeral be held at KH?

by scooterspank in

jw
friends

ThomasCovenant

WT 15th June 2002

Questions From Readers

If someone commits suicide, would it be advisable for a Christian minister to give the funeral talk?

Each Christian minister would have to decide for himself whether he in good conscience could conduct a funeral for someone who seems to have committed suicide. When making the decision, he should consider the following questions: How does Jehovah view suicide? Was the death really a self-inflicted murder? Did a mental or emotional disorder trigger the suicide? How is suicide viewed in the locality?

As Christians, we are interested in how Jehovah views suicide. To Jehovah human life is precious and sacred. (Genesis 9:5; Psalm 36:9) The intentional killing of oneself is self-murder, and it is therefore displeasing in God's eyes. (Exodus 20:13; 1 John 3:15) Does that fact preclude the giving of a funeral talk for a suicide victim?

Consider the case of King Saul of Israel. When he realized that he would not survive his final battle against the Philistines, rather than letting his enemy treat him abusively, "Saul took the sword and fell upon it." When the Philistines found his corpse, they fastened it on the wall of the city of Beth-shan. Upon finding out what the Philistines had done, the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead removed the corpse and burned it. Then they took his bones and buried them. They even fasted for seven days, a traditional mourning rite among the Israelites. (1 Samuel 31:4, 8-13; Genesis 50:10)

When David, the anointed of Jehovah, found out what the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead had done, he said: "Blessed may you be of Jehovah, because you exercised this loving-kindness toward your lord, toward Saul, in that you buried him. And now may Jehovah exercise toward you loving-kindness and trustworthiness." (2 Samuel 2:5, 6) The divine record does not indicate that the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead were condemned for performing what may be considered a funeral rite for King Saul. Compare that with the case of those who were deprived of burial because of their wrongdoing. (Jeremiah 25:32, 33) A Christian minister may consider the account about Saul in deciding whether he can give a funeral talk for a suicide victim.

The minister may also want to consider the purpose of a funeral service. Unlike people who believe in the immortality of the soul, Jehovah's Witnesses do not perform funerals with the erroneous idea of sending the deceased off to another world. Rather than to benefit the deceased, the main purpose of having a memorial service is to comfort the bereaved and to give a witness concerning the condition of the dead to those who attend. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; 2 Corinthians 1:3-5)

Another important reason for having a funeral is to help all in attendance to reflect on the transitoriness of life. (Ecclesiastes 7:2) Will these purposes be served by performing the memorial service for the suicide victim?

Granted, some may feel that the person took his life intentionally, fully aware that he was sinning against Jehovah. But is there always a way to substantiate such a feeling? Could it have been a spur-of-the-moment act? Some who attempt suicide feel regret and do not go through with it. A person cannot after death repent for what he has done.

Another important factor is that of mental and emotional disorders that are involved in many suicides. These can really be called suicide victims. According to some statistics, 90 percent of those who commit suicide have some kind of mental, emotional, or addictive problem. Will Jehovah forgive the self-murder committed by people in such a mental state? We are not in a position to judge whether the deceased committed an unforgivable sin in the eyes of Jehovah. A Christian minister may take into account the circumstances and medical history of the deceased when he considers whether to perform a funeral service for the suicide victim.

There is one more aspect to consider: How do people in the community view suicide and the death of the person? This is especially of concern to the elders, who are interested in the reputation of the local congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. Depending on the general attitude toward suicide in the locality, and particularly toward the case involved, the elders may prefer not to sponsor such a funeral publicly or to have it in the Kingdom Hall.

Still, if a Christian minister is asked to preside at the funeral, he may feel that on a private basis, he can do so. If he decides to do so, he should be discreet in not making any firm statements about whether a resurrection might be possible. Any future prospect for the dead is in the hands of Jehovah, and no one is in a position to say whether the deceased will be resurrected or not. The minister can concentrate on the Bible truths about death and offer comfort for the bereaved.

37

Paul's Out-Of-Body Experience - How did we Miss This?

by wordfamine.com in

the watchtower teaches that there is no such thing as a spirit or soul leaving the body that can consciously experience anything in heaven unless you are annointed and you die.

and the body certainly couldn't go in their view.

however the apostle paul plainly taught otherwise.

ThomasCovenant

Watchtower 15th Dec 1983

Questions From Readers

¦ Why do Jehovah's Witnesses say that there will be a future Paradise on earth, since 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 links "paradise" with "the third heaven"?

The context indicates that the "paradise" mentioned at 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is not a physical paradise on earth. However, many passages in the Bible prove that God will restore a literal Paradise to our earth.

The fact is that the first Paradise humans experienced was literal. Adam and Eve lived in a beautiful park, or garden, which is the basic meaning of the Hebrew, Greek and Persian words rendered paradise. They had the prospect of endless life in happiness and good health in that Paradise. Yet they lost that earthly Paradise when they rebelled and sinned, leading God to expel them from the garden of Eden.

Where does that leave us, now and for the future? There certainly is no evidence of our planet's now being turned into a paradise. Rather, pollution and destruction abound. (Revelation 11:18) Still, it is inconceivable that God's purpose for the earth to be a global Paradise will fail; what he starts, he finishes. To this end he sent his Son to provide a ransom, thus laying the groundwork for our sins to be forgiven and the imperfection we have inherited from Adam to be overcome. (1 Timothy 2:5, 6; Romans 5:18) When that is accomplished, humans will be able to enjoy what was set before Adam and Eve, endless life. Where?

God's original purpose for humans was endless life in a Paradise on earth, and God's purpose cannot fail or be thwarted. (Isaiah 55:11) So can we not look forward to that endless life being enjoyed right here on planet Earth, with the earth then restored to a paradisaic condition? There are numerous proofs in the Bible that this is the proper view, that God's will yet will "take place, as in heaven, also upon earth." (Matthew 6:10; Revelation 21:4, 5) For a more extensive discussion of the Biblical support for this, see "Does the Bible Promise an Earthly Paradise?" in The Watchtower of October 15, 1983.

Still, what about the apostle Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4? He pointedly said there that he was dealing with "supernatural visions and revelations of the Lord." And evidently he was the one who received a special vision or rapturous insight into something that was future from his time. He spoke of being "caught away into paradise." But since he also mentioned a "third heaven," it seems he was referring to something spiritual, as distinct from a literal garden paradise. There was precedent for his doing so.

Many prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures foretold that the Jews who were exiled in Babylon would be restored to their homeland. In addition to indications that the land and literal environmental condition would improve, these prophecies indicated that there would be a change in the people, the restored Jews. For instance, Isaiah wrote that Jehovah would ‘invigorate their very bones, and they would become like a well-watered garden' and be "called big trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, for him to be beautified." (Isaiah 58:11; 61:3; compare Psalm 1:3.) Using similar imagery about an earlier period, Isaiah wrote that when the Israelites were faithful to Jehovah they were like his vineyard or planting; when unfaithful, they were vines producing wild grapes and destined for burning down, with thornbush and weeds growing in their place.-Isaiah 5:1-7.

Hence, there is Biblical reason to understand Paul's visionary reference in 2 Corinthians 12:4 to be about a future restoration of spiritual prosperity among God's worshipers. He himself foretold that a falling away from true Christianity would occur before the "presence" of the Lord. (Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8) However, that would not be the permanent situation. The true Christian congregation, "God's field under cultivation," would again flourish and be fruitful. (1 Corinthians 3:9) We understand that this is the paradise that Paul saw in vision. His reference to such a spiritual paradise, though, in no way takes away from the many Biblical promises of an approaching earthly Paradise, a Paradise restored in accord with God's original purpose for the earth.