Posts by ithinkisee

4

Our first pumpkin carvings ....

by ithinkisee in

jw
friends

sunday morning we went to the store and got some pumpkins and utensils and set to work.

this was the result:.

we had a lot of fun.. anyone need some carving tips?

ithinkisee

Sunday morning we went to the store and got some pumpkins and utensils and set to work. This was the result:

We had a lot of fun.

Anyone need some carving tips? We can help ... heheh.

-ithinkisee

42

Ray Franz CoC, was he in denial? Just asking.

by Wasanelder Once in

i was reading a little coc last night where ray f. disusses the witch hunt at bethel that resulted in all the oustings.

as i read the doctrines that he questioned, (not judging him right or wrong), i noticed that he was questioning some of the fundamental beliefs of the wt.

ie: gov.

ithinkisee

I always had doubts growing up. BUt I kept on because it was everything I knew.

In 1995 I really got that sinking feeling with the generation change.

It wasn't until 10 years later 2004/5 that I finally had enough and was willing to lay it all on the line.

It wasn't because I liked giving public talks or announcements or going to special schools as a Ministerial Servant that I hung on. I hung on because of the people I loved so much and I didn't want to disappoint. I felt I had a responsibility to toe the party line no matter what and that me questioning was my selfish imperfect tendancies.

I can only imagine that someone like Ray Franz with his level of responsibility had much more concerns than me. He didn't have the Internet either, and tons of others that had gone through the same thing as him that he could reach at the drop of a hat like we do.

There would be legions of ex-JWs organized together, with or without Ray Franz. So I doubt his leaving had anything to do with him wanting a bunch of followers.

-ithinkisee

18

How Come So Many Bethelites Leave The Organization

by ilovemusik in

hello i'm new here but i've been reading the things on this db for quite some time.

i am still an active witness, but i've been having doubts for quite sometime and have been looking into the background of the organization, very shocked at what i'm finding.

since i lived next to headquarters and had a lot of bethelites in my congregation, i was shock to learn (not only on this db) that so many bethelites who leave bethel also end up leaving the organization.

ithinkisee

My first year at Bethel I worked with security for the Annual Meeting. There were a couple hundred non-Bethelites that were given the privilege of Bethel rooms and SOciety-provided transportation to the Annual Meeting in Jersey City.

I asked the overseer of our department what determined who got these special perks from teh Society. He looked around to make sure no one was looking, turned back to me, smiled and rubbed his thumb and fingers together (the international sign for MONEY), and said, "It's the big donaters that get the perks. The money makes the difference."

Naturally that seemed odd to me.

==

I marveled to another Bethelite how it was weird we got a new Creator book so soon after the Creation book. I was informed (again after looking around to make sure no one was listening) that the Society had to pump out a new book quickly because they were being threatened with lawsuits over misquoting secular authorities in the book.

==

One time I was trying to make casual conversation with Karl Adams (who was also my School conductor) at lunch, I said, "So are you working on anything cool in the Writing Department?" To which he gave me a gentle but firm tongue lashing about how they never talk about anything before it is published. We basically sat in silence for the rest of the lunch. After reading Crisis of Conscience and learning about his seeming subtle support for Ray Franz, I now understand his bitterness.

==

I said it to many of my friends long before I started questioning my beliefs, is that at Bethel it was ALL ABOUT who you KNOW. Many of the self-righteous people (like my first roommate) never got anywhere meekly following all the Bethel rules. By my shmoozing and through our Bethel underground I was on a first-name basis with brothers in Writing, Art, Service Department, Executive Assistants to the GB members, and so on.

==

I was in Fred Franz's congregation (and was at Bethel the year he died and went to his memorial service). One time they brought him in after the meeting was over (because he mostly stayed in the infirmary). Everyone in the congregation rushed to surround him like he was Jesus and were reaching out to touch him. It was just eerie, the creature worship.

==

Told by a brother in writing department under his breath, that they had a UN membership and would go to the UN to research - trying to identify the King of the North - and to listen in on meetings to see if anything would tip them off to the Great Tribulation.

==

General obsession with money and position by almost all at Bethel - especially the higher-up ones.

==

The Society's fascination with their buildings, and their constant bragging about them (anyone who has been on a Bethel tour knows what I am talking about)

==

No one wanting to tell me what happened to Leo Greenlees. When I was a kid we used to make a game of knowing all the GB member's names, and Leo Greenlees wasn't there by the time I got to Bethel and there was no announcement about his death or anything.

==

No one wanting to tell me why Fred Franz's brother - a GB member left Bethel. Someone finally grumbled something about his obsession with dates - but that was it.

There were other things too ... if I remember more I'll post em.

-ithinkisee

9

Can you recall when a householder placed a seed of doubt within you ?

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

the seeds of doubt that were placed by householders in field service advertise the king and his kingdom,"advertise", "advertise", "advertise.

" those words still ring out loud.

this incident never left me either and.

ithinkisee

My wife and I met a pastor at the door the year we were married. He calmly set us down and did some "seed-planting", methodically showing me and my wife how the New World Translation twisted texts to fit their doctrine by blatantly adding to scripture (or leaving stuff out). He did a lot of A/B comparisons since he had his bible and we had ours and he showed us how the NWT was rendering the EXACT SAME WORD differently in different places - even though the context was exactly the same.

His final words to me were - "Even if you don't listen to ANYTHING I tell you, listen to this - PLEASE go back and study the original Greek."

The next year or so I read a few books about translations and original Greek that stuck with me to this day.

-ithinkisee

37

for Christians: How did you decide on the Bible?

by BlackSwan of Memphis in

jw
friends

for those of you who are christian and accept the bible as nothing less then the word of god, how did you come to that conclusion?

how much research did you do into the bible to get to the point where you sat back and said, this is it?

or was it zero research and more a leap of faith?.

ithinkisee

... and then they never answer the real questions ... still waiting. -ithinkisee

37

for Christians: How did you decide on the Bible?

by BlackSwan of Memphis in

jw
friends

for those of you who are christian and accept the bible as nothing less then the word of god, how did you come to that conclusion?

how much research did you do into the bible to get to the point where you sat back and said, this is it?

or was it zero research and more a leap of faith?.

ithinkisee

And by the way . ...

I WANT TO believe the Bible. I really do. I'm not looking for any and every technicality to get out of following "the Good Shepherd". I don't feel SO BURNED by the JWs that I've thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

I really want to believe it. I have prayed about it, read all kinds of church history, history of the bible (both PRO and CON), and read tons of contemporary Christian leaders writings. I want to have that kind of faith.

But I find it hard to believe that God doesn't want me to "think". If there is a God, I believe he gave us our powers of reason and ability to learn and deduce and be logical for a reason.

It would seem incompatible that God would allow faith to override reason and simple logic, because it would be so easy for Satan (if there is a Satan) to make evil seem like truth. It requires logic and reason to find the truth of a matter, and faith does nothing but get in the way of it (much of the time).

Sure, there is a place for faith. As an example: If you are a football player, you could have faith that your football team can overcome the other, better, team. But if you are a local city league team and you are playing an NFL team, no amount of faith in the world is going help you to overcome that pro team. Sorry but it ain't gonna happen. Logic and reason has to step in at a certain point and override your faith.

With many Christians (and JWs), that is simply too much to handle. For this reason I believe that religion in general (including Christianity) seems to be a sort of therapy for people that can't accept responsibility for their own actions. It is therapy personified. "Turning your life over" to something means not having to figure things our for yourself. I don't think that is necessarily a negative - just like some people need medication to take the stress of life of, others need religion, and others have learned that the secret of life is that there really is no secret.

Now I'm rambling ... but I just wanted the Christians on this thread that tend to look down their noses at the ones that have honest questions about Christianity to know that there are people on here that GENUINELY WANT TO BELIEVE the bible and pray for it.

-ithinkisee

37

for Christians: How did you decide on the Bible?

by BlackSwan of Memphis in

jw
friends

for those of you who are christian and accept the bible as nothing less then the word of god, how did you come to that conclusion?

how much research did you do into the bible to get to the point where you sat back and said, this is it?

or was it zero research and more a leap of faith?.

ithinkisee

Whyizit:
If you aren't "getting it", it is because you don't have the Holy Sprit helping you.

That's bull - and very condescending. Again, no one has explained how they "got it". If you mean it is an overwhelming and supernatural feeling of peace and genuine love for others then that is no different from what others have felt in other religions- whether it's Christian or Muslim or even Buddhism. Just because your flavor is Christian doesn't mean it's the only answer. With a comment like that you are putting yourself in the same position of arrogance and prominence that JWs put themselves in.

Myelaine makes alot of comments about spiritual pens and trusting the good shephard, but what proof is there the bible has any more valuable spiritual food than any other "sacred" book? There is actually ample evidence and concrete facts to the contrary, (which has been shown over and over again on this site so I won't re-hash). To just say it gives you a tremendous inner peace is great - but there are many others that are not Christian that have great inner peace right up thru the day they die. How can you say yours is the ONLY way? Just because the Bible says so?

I don't mean to bash Christians like so many do on this board. I respect many of Jesus' teachings. There were scriptures that made me cry after I read them without the WT filter. But I can't buy the "just follow him and you will feel better" mantra because there appears to be nothing to it but blind faith. I've read many other "holy writings" that made me cry too - and that pre-dated Jesus. When I pose this question to Christians all I get is scriptures quoted back to me - which means nothing if you can't dispute the dubious origins of the bible in the first place. I believe that's called circular reasoning.

The other reaction I get is Christians rolling their eyes saying "You just don't GET it." But I do get it.

Like one of my favorite songwriters says,

"I'm not a man of faith. I'm a man of truth." - Mason Jennings

It takes A LOT of faith to believe something that is not true.

-ithinkisee

9

The 'TRUTH' of Jehovah's Witnesses (news wire)

by DannyHaszard in

most people can make a few basic associations with jehovah's witnesses: they are people who go door to door to talk about their faith and who don't celebrate ... the truth of jehovah's witnesses friday, september 22, 2006 by kelly savio most people can make a few basic associations with jehovah's witnesses: they are people who go door to door to talk about their faith and who don't celebrate birthdays.

during services, members of the congregation give talks on relevant topics concerning christian living, demonstrations are given to help with public ministry, and they do bible studies and have discussions on the material.

we believe that jesus was the son of jehovah, and we believe in living a christian life.

ithinkisee

I love the "We do believe in JEsus" part. They don't elaborate on that any more except to say "we DO believe in Jesus".

You know, I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't realize what people meant when they said we don't "believe in Jesus" until I was 32 years old and doing my "apostate" research. Sad ... truly sad ... that they think they (JWs)know what they are talking about but the really don't.

-ithinkisee

36

Buddhism bigger than JWs in US - Why? Does It Appeal to YOU!

by Seeker4 in

there is an article on yahoo news today that says buddhists now-number over 1.5 million in the us, compared to about 1 million jws, and that they grew 170% in the 1990s.

here are a couple of points they make in the article:.

"what is drawing people (after that fascination with zen buddhism in the '50s and '60s)?

ithinkisee

Ian did a great job of covering the basics of Buddhism. The points that should be clear is:

1) It is not a religion in the typical sense - although it could be considered a belief system.

2) You don't "join" anything.

3) The emphasis is on self, and finding peace and enlightenment within oneself instead of looking to a group or organization to provide external peace and enlightenment.

(There's alot more, but those are the things that resonated with me)

My grandfather never went to church, but he would go high up into the Olympic mountains in the Pacific Northwest and pray.

My dad doesn't go to church either. He prefers to sit alone in the woods in the trees and reflect on his place in the world, on the realities of life around him, his goals, and how he can improve himself and help others.

Both of these examples, and Buddhism, all share a common theme of meditation and accepting certain realities and working within the parameters of your realities.

I think this is the kind of teachings Jesus probably taught when he was on earth. Like Buddha though, things were written that he said after the fact from unknown sources (Christians note: it has never been confirmed that Matt Mark Luke and John actually wrote the books that bear their namesake. Evidence indicates that these were the names given to anonymous books to help them carry authority in "the Church").

Jesus appears to have been an enlightened person, and in many Buddhist writings you will see reference given to Jesus as examples where Jesus lifted teachings directly from Buddhism.

(Disclaimer: I've only read a couple of books on Buddhism ... so I am willing to be proven wrong on anything I have just said.)

-ithinkisee

47

Is a sexually promiscuous life style linked to depression or insecurity?

by free2beme in

jw
friends

i work in an environment at work that is a mix of adult ranging in age from 18-50. there are 300 plus people in the building, and that means you get a lot of soap operas happening from people sleeping with other people's girlfriends, boyfriends and even people cheating on their spouses with people they work with.

among the bunch is a large group of people who spend a lot of time passing themselves around, and sampling many sexual partners.

of the people who i know, i have often found that many do not seem as happy as one might think.

ithinkisee

I knew single women that ONLY slept with married men because "The men just wanted to have great sex with no strings attached."