You argued that Arians in the fourth century didn’t base their beliefs on scripture. The point of me quoting Maurice Wiles is to show that modern scholarship has demonstrated that Arians did base their beliefs on scripture. Wiles was one of the most knowledgeable and widely published scholars on Arianism of the past century. The charge against Arians is ironic too, because the Nicene/Athanasius faction was prone to using the language of philosophy to define their beliefs in terms of “essence”, something rejected by many as unscriptural. Wiles’ demonstrated that many of the traditional accusations against Arians were false. He was not himself Arian, but in fairness Wiles documented that Athanasius was in the habit of misrepresentation and forgery. Other scholars of Arianism have drawn similar conclusions about Arians basing their views on the Bible and the traditional teaching of the church before the fourth century. Rowan Williams, for example, described Arius as a “theological conservative”. Scholar of religion, Karen Armstrong, says “Arius knew the scriptures well and he produced an armoury of texts to support his claim that Christ the Word could only be a creature like ourselves” and, “there was nothing new about his claim: Origen, whom both sides held in high esteem, had taught a similar doctrine.” (A History of God,1999, pages 131 and 132). RPC Hanson wrote a massive volume on Christological controversy in the fourth century (The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God, 1988) and showed that subordinationism was the orthodoxy before Nicaea. These are representative of mainstream modern scholarship. These carry more weight than your assertions about Arian beliefs not being based on the Bible, or the work of conservative Trinitarians who still push a distorted picture of the early church.
slimboyfat
JoinedPosts by slimboyfat
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136
Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"
by aqwsed12345 indue to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.
it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).
instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.
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136
Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"
by aqwsed12345 indue to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.
it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).
instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.
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slimboyfat
It’s from Justin’s first Apology.
Arianism was notable for its appeal to the Bible, as Maurice Wiles documents in Archetypal Heresy: Arianism Through the Centuries (1996) on pages 10 to 17, in detail. He goes on to comment:
In the past it [Arius’ description as ‘an acute reasoner’] has often been interpreted to imply that Arius was a skilled practitioner of Aristotelian logic. But the evidence does little to support such a view. It is in part perhaps the product of a general theory (going back to Hippolytus) that behind every heresy there lies the distorting influence of a specific philosophical school. Page 24
On each side of the controversy there were those with whom virtuosity of reasoning skill may see to have got out of hand. Page 25
There are no good grounds for distinguishing ‘Arianism’ as exclusively characterised by ‘presumptuous reasoning’. Page 26
Affirmation of the radically secondary status of the Son’s divinity, demonstrated not by philosophical argument but by the exegesis of scriptural texts, was the hallmark of Western Arianism throughout. Page 36
the primary distinguishing characteristic [of Arians according to the author of Opus Imperfectum] that marks out this community as the true church is faithfulness to Scripture. Page 39
Since it [Arianism among the Goths] was a faith that emphasised not merely the basic role of the Bible in the definition of Christian faith but its essential sufficiency for the task, it would not be surprising if it was to specifically biblical issues that any intellectual energies of among Gothic Christians should have been primarily directed. And this is what the scanty evidence suggests. Page 49
It is probably best described as non-Nicene rather than anti-Nicene, biblical and traditional in character. Thompson’s description of German Arianism as ‘characterised by a ponderous and earthbound reliance on the text of the Bible’ may be unnecessarily pejorative in tone, but not too far from the mark in substance. Page 50
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11530
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars
by Newly Enlightened inoriginal reddit post (removed).
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slimboyfat
People sent him the books for free, including rare magazines and ephemera. I doubt he paid for a single one. Some of them are worth a bit of money. Sold as a complete collection they are worth thousands of pounds. He probably plans to sell them at some point when he needs the money, or when he “retires”. Keeping them on display in his videos encourages more people to send him rare items in the meantime.
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136
Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"
by aqwsed12345 indue to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.
it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).
instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.
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slimboyfat
Jehovah’s Witnesses, Origen, the other ante Nicene fathers, and the Bible itself agree that Jesus was/is “God” (Isaiah 9.6, John 1.1), the question is what that means. The angels are also called gods.
Was Jesus created and is he subordinate to his God? The emphatic answer from scripture, and Christians before the fourth century, is that Jesus was created and is subordinate to God.
“In saying that the Word, who is the first offspring of God, was born for us without sexual union, as Jesus Christ our Teacher, and that he was crucified and died and after rising again ascended into heaven we introduce nothing new beyond [what you say of] those whom you call sons of Zeus.”— Justin, Apology 21
“The Fathers before the Council of Nice speak rather like Arians than orthodox” — John Locke.
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136
Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"
by aqwsed12345 indue to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.
it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).
instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.
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slimboyfat
For the Son of God, ‘the First-born of all creation’, although He seemed recently to have become incarnate, is not by any means on that account recent. For the holy Scriptures know Him to be the most ancient of all the works of creation; for it was to Him that God said regarding the creation of man, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness’
Origen, Contra Celsum, 5.37 -
136
Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"
by aqwsed12345 indue to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.
it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).
instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.
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slimboyfat
In the original Greek it's eikon. if you're really Greek, you should know that is word has a much deeper meaning the the English word "image".
“Arius agrees with early Christian conclusions that God the Father is necessarily uncreated and un- begotten, and yet, because the Son is created and begotten, as he finds in the words of Colossians 1, the Son cannot truly be God … Arius’s theology is not based on a new understanding of Colossians 1:15, but rather builds on how this same passage had already been used by early Christian writers. … The problem with Colossians 1:15 is that the Arians’ interpretation of this passage to defend Christ as creature and not fully divine is entirely plausible, and the problem for Athanasius and his sympathizers is that the basic sense of Colossians 1:15 leads to Arianism.”
Jennifer Strawbridge, ‘The Image and Unity of God: The Role of Colossians I in Theological Controversy’, in The Bible and Early Trinitarian Theology, Ed. Christopher A. Beeley and Mark E. Weedman (2018), pages 188 and 189.
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All the Old JW Acquaintances Passing Away
by StephaneLaliberte inyesterday, my dad told me an older sister passed away.
she wasn't too old (in her 60s), but i knew her 30 years ago and haven't seen her in 15 years; the main reason being that i faded 10 years ago.. yesterday, i seriously considered attending the funeral and catch-up with old jws i used to know.
after thinking it over, i decided against it.
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slimboyfat
Personally, I would go. People might attempt to put pressure on, but then again maybe not, you might be surprised. I think a lot of JWs have mellowed. People who you liked and who liked you might just be pleased to see you. It depends on the specifics of the situation, but I do see the capacity of longtime JWs to acknowledge old connections with faded members without the need to turn it sour. But every situation is unique and different places probably have different cultures.
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11530
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars
by Newly Enlightened inoriginal reddit post (removed).
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slimboyfat
The biggest jump upwards in early 2021 was when they had an earthquake in Croatia and lots of people started sending them thousands and joined his Patreon. In fact at one point LE said publicly that they ‘had enough money’. Just imagine how much money people had sent them for even LE to say it was enough!
The good news is that, even with the latest begging boost, he is still below the 2021 pre-earthquake level. The bad news is that attrition at this rate is likely to drag on for years.
Plus the cost of his latest begging video seems to be that Reddit has turned against him. That’s going to make it harder each time he tries to beg for more.
Meanwhile of course, he has the drudgery of trying to produce more of his stupid videos, which is probably almost as boring to make as they are to watch. I see his latest videos had around 3k views.
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11530
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars
by Newly Enlightened inoriginal reddit post (removed).
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773
Breaking News: Anthony Morris III no longer serving on the Governing Body
by WingCommander inthis has been announced on the jw's official website, in the "jw news" section.
this is not a joke.
anthony moron da turd is out as a gluttonous body member!
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slimboyfat
Or put it another way, if this is how they treat someone who retires for health reasons (no thanks, but silence, removal of some of his videos, and gossip allowed to run wild) then it’s almost a worse indictment on the workings of the GB than either his removal or resignation.