Posts by slimboyfat

29

Are JWs capable of a genuine discussion?

by stuckinarut2 in

jw
friends

i was just pondering whether jws are capable of having a calm, in depth discussion about religious or faith topics?.

i have just finished listening to a great podcast by "dogma debate" (dan) episode 333. this fantastic, in-depth conversation between a theist and an atheist was a masterful example of how a dignified conversation can take place without it resorting to abruptness or even nastiness.. jws on the other hand seem incapable of having such discussion without ending up in the following ways:.

1)they get dogmatic and defensive if a differing view is presented.. 2)if the conversation doesn't go their way, they cut it short saying something like "well, we had better agree to disagree" or the like.. so why the arrogance?

slimboyfat

Yearbooks are replete with such stories of clergymen becoming JWs. But you won't find any experiences like that related in the 2018 yearbook. For two main reasons:

1. No new experiences.

2. No more yearbook.

36

The Harp of God book

by blownaway in

i am looking for the book the harp of god.

i am told it has some crazy passages in it.

can anyone put up some quotes of the book?

slimboyfat

I don't have the quotes to hand. But at one time I did look into this closely. Rutherford abandoned Zionism before the Nazis came to power in 1933. But you are correct in the sense that Nazis didn't tend to recognise the niceties of "new light" and continued to ascribe Zionist beliefs to JWs anyway.

More pointedly some JW critics have suggested that JWs abandoned Zionism to appease the Nazis. But the chronology doesn't support this. Rutherford rejected Zionism before the Nazis came to power.

17

Can you top this example of JW corruption?

by Mace.Bean in

if you are a former jw elder, can you share any examples of corruption which you personally witnessed that were kept secret from the congregation?

following is an account from a longtime elder named tommy who recently disassociated.. the minor daughter of a presiding elder in a west texas congregation committed fornication with a 19-year old baptized witness in her father’s home.

the daughter had to confess to a judicial committee which included the aforementioned tommy.

slimboyfat

Sounds like two teenagers had sex and later got married. Doesn't seem astoundingly corrupt to me.

I knew of a ministerial servant who stole around £500 from congregation funds and got a private reroof. I was surprised they didn't have better systems in place to catch that but maybe it happens all the time,

Seems pretty small scale compared to what happened at the publishers of The Christadelphian magazine, Apparently the editor of the magazine stole funds amounting to hundreds of thousands of pounds over many years, before he was caught. It's somewhat impressive actually that such a tiny denomination had enough funds to absorb that scale of theft unnoticed for years. It's quite an interesting story you can read about here:

http://www.christadelphianresearch.com/investigationforfraud.htm

I have no independent verification of the details given on that paragraph, other than simply that it seems to be documented and not particularly sensational. I find Christadelphians fascinating in lots of ways, both insider and outsider perspectives.

36

The Harp of God book

by blownaway in

i am looking for the book the harp of god.

i am told it has some crazy passages in it.

can anyone put up some quotes of the book?

slimboyfat

Ha! I had in fact already formulated that obvious response to myself in my head, and mocked myself over it. But thanks for giving it concrete expression, and allowing me the opportunity to state more clearly what I was trying to say.

There are some of Russell's teachings that Rutherford was clearly never fond of, in particular the pyramidology. Rutherford downplayed it and eventually dropped it altogether.

But zionism is not such an obvious case. Rutherford didn't carry it forward reluctantly, he wholeheartedly embraced Zionism, as can be seen reading "Comfort for the Jews". And neither did Rutherford quietly drop Zionism, but he did a complete 180 and totally trashed Zionism in his later years.

So I wonder what made Rutherford re-evaluate and radically alter his position between 1925 and 1930. It's presented as simply a new consideration of the scriptures. Penton says it's because Rutherford was anti-Semitic and possibly had particular experience of Jews in Brooklyn. Was it simply either of those, a combination, or something else?

38

Goodbye my friends.

by StephaneLaliberte in

jw
friends

for almost 12 years now, i have been coming to this site on a regular basis and in the last 5, i “faded out”.

i never regretted this and never will.

unfortunately though, yesterday, i realized that, until i can publically tell all my old acquaintances why i have left, i will never be truly free.

slimboyfat

Take me with you! Are you going back to the meetings? I've been thinking about going back for good I have to admit it. Once you know the truth you can't shake it off.

29

Are JWs capable of a genuine discussion?

by stuckinarut2 in

jw
friends

i was just pondering whether jws are capable of having a calm, in depth discussion about religious or faith topics?.

i have just finished listening to a great podcast by "dogma debate" (dan) episode 333. this fantastic, in-depth conversation between a theist and an atheist was a masterful example of how a dignified conversation can take place without it resorting to abruptness or even nastiness.. jws on the other hand seem incapable of having such discussion without ending up in the following ways:.

1)they get dogmatic and defensive if a differing view is presented.. 2)if the conversation doesn't go their way, they cut it short saying something like "well, we had better agree to disagree" or the like.. so why the arrogance?

slimboyfat

No. It's one of the most disappointing realisations I've had, that people I grew up regarding as intelligent and thoughtful, when it comes down to it just don't want to discuss topics they find difficult. Conversations need to be on their terms or it's ruled out of order and you can be reported. Well if that's how it is, I just won't discuss anything with them. But they should know that silencing all contrary thoughts and ideas doesn't make you right. I don't think they realise this. Or more likely they don't care. Presumably because what they derive psychologically from affirming their beliefs is more important to them than open discussion and toleration.

Much of the training for the ministry is apparently designed to prevent proper discussions. If anyone raises a genuine question JWs are instructed to go away and find the answer in the publications rather than engaging the question. Plus JWs are constantly on the lookout for signs that a householder is an "opposer" or worse still an "apostate" and close down any such interaction quickly. They are only interested in talking to people who they think know less than they do, and strictly only on their terms

Ironically JWs often meet people on the ministry who know an awful lot more than they do, whether that be about biology, the Bible, history or whatever. But because discussion of such specialised areas of knowledge is not expressed in terms that JWs can recognise or easily understand, JWs somehow manage to come away from such encounters believing that they possess vitally important information that outside experts lack. This is quite an amazing organisational and psychological feat when you consider just how superficial JW knowledge of such areas of human knowledge is.

18

Attention!! There will be sex in heaven

by James Mixon in

well i thought i had heard it all but, the mercury columns "will christians enjoy sex in heaven" just hurt my brain.

how can god allow sexual relations in heaven without marriage??

in heaven there is no need for anyone to belong exclusively to another(wow!!!

slimboyfat

Oh right, somehow I didn't think this sounded like WT style new light.

I wonder about Mormon heaven.

18

Attention!! There will be sex in heaven

by James Mixon in

well i thought i had heard it all but, the mercury columns "will christians enjoy sex in heaven" just hurt my brain.

how can god allow sexual relations in heaven without marriage??

in heaven there is no need for anyone to belong exclusively to another(wow!!!

slimboyfat

This is new WT reaching, or what? I'm totally lost.

36

The Harp of God book

by blownaway in

i am looking for the book the harp of god.

i am told it has some crazy passages in it.

can anyone put up some quotes of the book?

slimboyfat

It still majors on Zionism I think.

I was reading Comfort for the Jews the other day, which promoted Zionism very strongly in 1925. Yet by the early 1930s Rutherford had totally rejected Zionism. I wonder what happened in just five years to so radically alter his view.

There is some irony in the fact that Watchtower strongly predicted a Jewish homeland for decades, but abandoned the prediction just a few years before it actually happened.

36

The Harp of God book

by blownaway in

i am looking for the book the harp of god.

i am told it has some crazy passages in it.

can anyone put up some quotes of the book?

slimboyfat

It was the first real study book, wasn't it? I got a copy at a car boot sale in Wales 20 years ago for 30p. I know because it still has 30p marked on it. I tried to read it but honestly it's not the easiest read. I seem to remember a lot about 1799 and jubilees. I can't help falling asleep when I read about jubilees.

Incidentally I do think I remember the reason given for the unusual title. The Harp of God was the instrument David played, and each chapter represents a string in the harp, and together they convey the melody of the truth. I forget because the metaphor breaks down there.