Posts by slimboyfat

39

Why the resurrection must be true

by slimboyfat in

okay i was thinking about it.

and it is a transhumanist argument and nothing new, i do realise that before anyone points it out.

but it struck me afresh today that the resurrection must happen.. firstly, to state the obvious, a rational materialist conception of reality seems to exclude resurrection.

slimboyfat

Thank you bohm for wiriting that. I've read it a few times. So you are arguing against the proposition that intelligent beings will ever be able to gather information about the exact composition and dynamic of the universe. And you argue against the proposition using chaos theory rather than quantum theory as in the video posted above. It seems you are basically arguing against a deterministic universe.

Or maybe not, maybe you are saying that the universe in itself may be deterministic, but not in a way that we will ever be able to decipher, because our measurements wil never be precise enough. I think this is an important distinction because, if the universe in itself is not deterministic, that would seem to imply there is something more than purely a material aspect to reality. What is that extra causal element in reality and how does it square with a materialist understanding of the universe?

On the other hand, if you are saying the universe is deterministic in itself but we can never measure it well enough for it to divulge its secrets, I am still left wondering how do you know? No matter how complex the system, no matter how small the measurement required, if the universe obeys reliable laws, then in principle its trajectory should be discoverable. It is simply a matter of time and progress.

Plus my very rudimentary understanding of chaos versus classical mechanics suggests there is a problem with your suggestion that uncertainty at a micro-level due to chaos theory is multiplied as you go up. As I understand it, classical mechanics largely "works" precisely because this chaotic feature of reality is not multiplied up the scale, but tends to be cancelled out at the macro-level. The macro level at which human beings exist and function.

I still think a purely materialist conception of reality, given a progressive accumulation of information, inevitably proves future resurrection.

13

HOUSE, M.D., Jehovah's Witnesses, and '75

by compound complex in

season 7, episode 18: "the dig".

house picks up "thirteen" -- dr. remy hadley -- upon her release from prison.

she asks him to take her to a certain location in order to take care of a personal matter.

slimboyfat

Cool, and once again interesting that "worldly" people have a more accurate and realistic picture of JW history than JWs themselves.

75

The Trump Era commences

by ZAPPA-ESQUE in

jw
friends

.

slimboyfat

if there is such a thing as a redeeming consequence for this experiment, is that in 4 years, the pendulum will swing ( i think) completely the other way.

That was the theory when Hitler took power. And I guess the pendulum did swing back to liberal democracy in Germany - 12 years later and tens of millions dead.

75

The Trump Era commences

by ZAPPA-ESQUE in

jw
friends

.

slimboyfat

Part of a wee Scottish poem especially for today by Lorna Wallace:

America, aw whit ye dain?!

How could ye choose a clueless wain

Ti lead yir country? Who wid trust

A man sae vile?!

A racist, sexist eedjit

Wi a shite hairstyle?

Yet lo, ye votit (michty me!)

Ti hawn’ this walloper the key

Ti pow’r supreme, ti stert his hateful,

Cruel regime.

A cling ti hope that this is aw

Jist wan bad dream.

But naw, the nightmare has come true,

A curse upon rid, white an’ blue,

An’ those who cast oot Bernie

Must feel sitch regret

Fur thinkin’ Mrs. Clinton

Was a safer bet.

So noo we wait ti see unfold

Division an’ intolerance, cold;

A pois’nous bigotry untold

Since Hitler’s rule

As the free world’s hopes an’ dreams

Lie with this fool.

Alas, complainin’ wullnae change

The fact this diddy has free range

Ti ride roughshod ow’r human beings

That fall outside

The cretinous ideals borne of

His ugly pride.

39

Why the resurrection must be true

by slimboyfat in

okay i was thinking about it.

and it is a transhumanist argument and nothing new, i do realise that before anyone points it out.

but it struck me afresh today that the resurrection must happen.. firstly, to state the obvious, a rational materialist conception of reality seems to exclude resurrection.

slimboyfat

Vidiot I elsewhere argued that JWs will create Jehovah at some future time and effect their own salvation. This is the sacred secret, it's salvation but not as we know it.

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/255532/true-meaning-jehovah-overlapping-generation-revealed

39

Why the resurrection must be true

by slimboyfat in

okay i was thinking about it.

and it is a transhumanist argument and nothing new, i do realise that before anyone points it out.

but it struck me afresh today that the resurrection must happen.. firstly, to state the obvious, a rational materialist conception of reality seems to exclude resurrection.

slimboyfat

...and then "resurrecting" all the worst WT leaders and forcing them to see how mind-f**kingly wrong they turned out to be.

In this scenario the WT leader has been resurrected into a world in which human civilisation is so advanced that presumably, not only has he been resurrected, but problems of illness, scarcity, and even death have been conquered. And in this scenario you will inform him that he was wrong about the future? Ironically, don't you think he might turn around and tell you he was right!

39

Why the resurrection must be true

by slimboyfat in

okay i was thinking about it.

and it is a transhumanist argument and nothing new, i do realise that before anyone points it out.

but it struck me afresh today that the resurrection must happen.. firstly, to state the obvious, a rational materialist conception of reality seems to exclude resurrection.

slimboyfat

The longer you wait, the more distant into the past, the more diluted any information gets.

Processes of information retrieval that are already feasible show that the rate of recovery is much quicker than degradation. For example the continents are still changing position, But the science of plate tectonics advances so quickly that the information "lost" between the development of techniques to trace the past movement of the continents is so negligible as to be non-existent.

DNA is also subject to degradation over time, but advances in technology are so much quicker than the loss of information that old murders can be solved, and the de-extinction of long dead species is now considered feasible.

https://youtu.be/XKc9MJDeqj0

If such seeming science fiction examples of information retrieval is possible, even today. Then it would seem to follow that, given enough progress, the material composition of the universe itself will inevitably be quantified. At which point, if the materialist conception of reality is correct, not only is resurrection feasible, it is inevitable.

39

Why the resurrection must be true

by slimboyfat in

okay i was thinking about it.

and it is a transhumanist argument and nothing new, i do realise that before anyone points it out.

but it struck me afresh today that the resurrection must happen.. firstly, to state the obvious, a rational materialist conception of reality seems to exclude resurrection.

slimboyfat

Isn't it the case that energy and matter are interchangeable and cannot be destroyed? The phraseology "require more energy than exists in the universe" seems to imply that once energy has been used to accomplish a function it is thereafter lost. But that is not how it works as I understand it. After energy accomplishes something it still exists at the end of the process, just in a different form. So maybe it is imossible to process the information concerning the whole universe all at once, but parts of it can be processed successively, until it is all quantified.

Plus as more and more of the universe is given over to processes which involve understanding itself (consciousness) we will realise we are reaching a point where the universe itself is destined to be self-aware, not merely beings within it. This super consciousness, as it expands and advances, will necessarily involve all consciousness that exists and has ever existed. So the part of the universe that is the subject expands and the part that is the object shrinks, to the point where the universe is pure consciousness. Necessarily involving the consciousness of all beings that have ever existed. This is a basic argument for panpsychism. I have until now assumed that conscious beings are discrete entities and matter is easily divided between conscious and unconscious, but these are not safe assumptions

39

Why the resurrection must be true

by slimboyfat in

okay i was thinking about it.

and it is a transhumanist argument and nothing new, i do realise that before anyone points it out.

but it struck me afresh today that the resurrection must happen.. firstly, to state the obvious, a rational materialist conception of reality seems to exclude resurrection.

slimboyfat

It would have to be a very altruistic society to forgo the pleasures of their own present, forward looking lives, to present some forgotten ancestor with a return to a second presence.

My argument is that each generation has sufficient interest in their parents and immediate relatives to insist that they are brought back when it becomes feasible to do so. When they are brought back they will feel the same about their parents and so on. "Some forgotten ancestor" doesn't enter the picture. Plus however difficult or onerous it may be to accomplish, given time and progress, you simply need to wait longer until it becomes feasible.

39

Why the resurrection must be true

by slimboyfat in

okay i was thinking about it.

and it is a transhumanist argument and nothing new, i do realise that before anyone points it out.

but it struck me afresh today that the resurrection must happen.. firstly, to state the obvious, a rational materialist conception of reality seems to exclude resurrection.

slimboyfat

bohm according to the video above about how physical cloning is not possible, it says that an extremely close approximation is theoretically possible but that quantum mechanics prevents an exact physical clone without destroying the original in the process of retrieving the information. A resurrection does not involve replicating or destroying one original, but extrapolating from numerous points in the past to recreate a being which resembles multiple point but may not be exact to any given one.

It also says that it is not clear that consciousness arises from processes at a quantum level. As time goes on, the closer the approximation that humans are able to create must become. The information needed will be immense, but given time and progress it becomes inevitable. You mention all sorts of complicated processes that make the information difficult to retrieve. But as long as those processes follow consistent laws which are discoverable, then no matter how long or convoluted, the information is in principle retrievable at an ordinary mechanical level. Since humans operate and function on a scale at which ordinary physics rules apply rather than quantum mechanics, the information that can be retrieved will be enough to recover what is needed to reconstruct an entity that is constituted and functions as the original.

So the philosophical question again is whether an exact copy which has the same composition and functions the same as the original person is a resurrection of that person.