Posts by slimboyfat

18

Undeserved kindness

by life is to short in

just a side note that i found interesting and sort of upsetting, the wt that the jw's will study on sunday the 18th of september has the words undeserved kindness mentioned 50 in just 19 paragraphs.

really they need to beat it into their people that they are very worthless and do no deserve anything from god?

so much so that they use the words over and over, don't they.. lits .

slimboyfat

The word "grace" tends to emphasize God's mercy, whereas the term "underserved kindness" emphasises that humans are not worthy.

When you gain broader perspective it becomes apparent that JWs are not a very God oriented religion.

10

Rocky

by molybdenum in

welcome "rocky".

the new face on jw broadcasting.

.

slimboyfat

Is he "anointed"?

Splane looked smitten. Yuck.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

slimboyfat

Cofty in first post:

How do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

Cofty in later post:

It has nothing at all to do with answering "ultimate questions" How the process of life began is a scientific puzzle not a metaphysical one. That is the point. It's not about whether god exists, it's simply about how the process of life gets started.

Huh? Which is it?

Cofty consistently using insults instead of addressing the argument:

You are a troll. You constantly hijack threads with your tedious po-mo bullshit.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

slimboyfat

You are correct. I thought my point was already reasonable, but struck by Cofty's response, I attempted to express it in even milder terms, and I unnecessarily altered the meaning. I could have better said:

"This thread is based on the assumption that scientific discoveries will establish an atheistic view of reality and asks how theists will respond when confronted with that reality."

The idea that science can answer ultimate questions about existence is far from an established fact. In fact it's probably a minority view, mainly popular among some science writers. The idea that anyone challenging it must be a troll is bizarre and startlingly blinkered.

53

The Real Reason why the WT predicted Armageddon in 1975

by OrphanCrow in

i am of the opinion that the wt doctrine is influenced more by external factors that it is by internal ones.

one of the doctrines that has puzzled me for some time is the armageddon prediction of 1975. why would the wts make this prediction?

what was their real purpose?.

slimboyfat

As already acknowledged, JWs preached before, during and after this period. So the connection between tax status, preaching, and 1975 looks tenuous to non-existent. Have you missed out some evidence for a connection?

Besides, if you are accused of not being a real religion, then setting a date for Armageddon to prove that you are, is a pretty bizarre response, given that society in general doesn't tend to view apocalyptic date-setting favourably.

The evidence would tend to suggest that JWs promoted 1975 because many of them really believed it, including the Vice President. It's fair to argue the leadership were also pleased about the boost in membership and activity and that might have been part of a calculation for some.

You argue the real reason for the blood situation is money, and that money also prompted the 1975 prophecy. Is it your general contention that financial considerations are behind most JW doctrinal history?

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

slimboyfat

The thread is based on the assumption that scientific discoveries will tend to support an atheistic view of reality and asks how theists well respond when confronted with the new proof. I am saying that reality does not work like that and scientific discoveries do not solve ultimate questions.

Where is a strawman involved in making that basic observation?

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

slimboyfat

What is your problem? Do you mean to imply I don't really mean what I say? The idea that our picture of reality will never be finally settled is hardly a far out notion. It's pretty mainstream. The fact that JWs and some atheists share this confidence, that one day they'll be "proved right", once and for all, is worth pointing out. Or am I a "troll" simply because I don't agree with you that the nature of reality will one day be finally settled? And how on earth does calling me names (no personal attacks?) address the argument?

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

slimboyfat

This thread reminds me of the Kingdom Song that goes:

Then they will know you only are Jehovah
Then they will know your ways are just and true
Then they will know throughout the whole creation
All you have purposed you will surely do

JW believers and their atheist counterparts seem to share the same belief that at some point in the future their view of reality will be confirmed beyond doubt, once and for all. The evidence will be so overwhelming at Armageddon/following some scientific breakthrough, that their opponents will simply have to recognise the "truth" of the situation.

It is a fantasy.

53

The Real Reason why the WT predicted Armageddon in 1975

by OrphanCrow in

i am of the opinion that the wt doctrine is influenced more by external factors that it is by internal ones.

one of the doctrines that has puzzled me for some time is the armageddon prediction of 1975. why would the wts make this prediction?

what was their real purpose?.

slimboyfat

If I was asked to provide the "real" reasons for the 1975 phenomenon among JWs I'd give the following factors.

Fred Franz increased in confidence as well as disconnect from reality following his successful translation of the NWT. He increasinly developed detailed interpretations of prophecy as the long books on prophecy from the period show.

Knorr may have stopped the 1975 fiasco were it not for the fact that his position and authority had been weakened by the findings of the Aid book researchers in the 1960s and his failing health in the 1970s.

JW growth was pretty phenomenal in the 1940s and 1950s, but had slowed significantly in the 1960s. Even those in the leadership who were not convinced by 1975 may have been swept along by the new enthusiasm and activity the date produced.

It was an unsettled time in society in general, with the failed revolutions of 1968, the Vietnam war, economic and political instability. All these things may have made it easier for JWs to believe the "system of things" was nearing its end.

An interesting aspect of the 1975 phenomenon that is not often commented upon is the very uneven impact it had on JWs worldwide. If you look at the numbers who joined before 1975 and those who left after 1975, some countries such as the Philippnes lost up to half the membership, whereas growth in other countries such as Italy was not adversely impacted at all.

53

The Real Reason why the WT predicted Armageddon in 1975

by OrphanCrow in

i am of the opinion that the wt doctrine is influenced more by external factors that it is by internal ones.

one of the doctrines that has puzzled me for some time is the armageddon prediction of 1975. why would the wts make this prediction?

what was their real purpose?.

slimboyfat

In addition to the good reasons for doubting this explanation of 1975 already given. I would add that there is simply no evidence that JWs' status as a proselytising community has ever been in doubt. Especially in the United States where they fought many legal battles on that basis. They may have preached more leading up to 1975, but they were also highly active preaching before the prediction, as well as following the failed date.

And as others pointed out, the evidence is that Fred Franz was the driving force behind 1975. If there is any evidence he was motivated by legal and financial pressures, rather than what he appeared to be, caught up in his own obscure biblical formulations, it's not been presented.

Plus 1975 was not first mentioned in 1966, as another poster careful has pointed out, this date was indicated as early as the 1940s.