Posts by slimboyfat

78

How to argue with a JW who says the org never said the end in 75

by dogon in

i have argued with several jws who are now being trained to deny the org ever said the end in 75, what is your approach?.

slimboyfat

I'd suggest that the sort of JW who says 1975 never happened may be the sort of JW it's not worth arguing with. It's not like decades ago when ignorance on this topic, as many other topics, may have been excusable. Anyone who wants to find out what happened around 1975 can do so easily in a few clicks. If they insist nothing happened around 1975 they are either wilfully ignorant or lying. And you can't force anyone to learn or accept something they don't want to.

I have a JW who from time to time tries to convince me evolution is false. I guess I've kind of humoured it over the years. He points to new magazines on design or whatever. But what I should really say to him, because he's obviously never read a book on evolution, is simply that he should read an actual book on he subject then we could have a meaningful conversation. For perhaps 99% of people who say they don't accept evolution, the only information that comment conveys about the person is that they've never actually read a book that explains the subject rather than distorts it. They have nothing meaningful to say about the subject itself because they don't really know anything about it.

Same thing when a JW says "I've never heard that 1975 was a thing". They somehow think this means "because I don't know about 1975 being a thing, therefore 1975 wasn't a thing". This is obviously specious logic. It's just as bad as saying "I find evolution incredible therefore it can't be true". These sorts of statements say nothing about the topic in itself and everything about the wilful ignorance of the person making the statement.

50

ISIS Want to Clear up Why They Do Terrorism

by cofty in

every time isis commit one of their atrocities, well-meaning folks mumble self-loathing apologies on behalf of "the west".

noam chomsky and his sort lead a chorus of masochistic confessions.

apparently everybody is to blame for islamic terrorism (according to bill nye global warming causes isis) - apart from islamic terrorists of course.

slimboyfat

Again you are asking the wrong question.

Would ISIS even exist if it wasn't for the Iraq War?

50

ISIS Want to Clear up Why They Do Terrorism

by cofty in

every time isis commit one of their atrocities, well-meaning folks mumble self-loathing apologies on behalf of "the west".

noam chomsky and his sort lead a chorus of masochistic confessions.

apparently everybody is to blame for islamic terrorism (according to bill nye global warming causes isis) - apart from islamic terrorists of course.

slimboyfat

The question is not "do terrorists give religious motivations for their actions?" (Obviously they do, no one deputes this)

The question is "were it not for western wars in the Middle East would there be more or less terrorism?"

I've never anywhere seen Chomsky dispute that terrorists often give religious reasons for their violence, just as I've never seen a good argument for believing that more western wars in the Middle East reduces terrorism.

People who favour war and incomprehension are determined to avoid the second question, and pretend the first question is even a significant point of debate.

16

JW as a secret society - a weak link in the Information Age.

by slimboyfat in

in the late 1990s there was magazine article that asked the question, are jws a secret society?

obviously they said no, because they claim to be transparent to outsiders and new members.

but they really are not transparent at all.

slimboyfat

In the late 1990s there was magazine article that asked the question, are JWs a secret society?

Obviously they said no, because they claim to be transparent to outsiders and new members.

But they really are not transparent at all. I don't know if they deserve the grand title "secret society" exactly, but there is something decidedly secretive about the way the way they structure their organisation.

For example, other religions have elders and ministers, and they have guidebooks to tell them how to perform their duties. But how many other religions have elder guidebooks that are kept secret from ordinary members? Even to the point that wives are not supposed to read them (or even handle them) and they must be returned immediately if the elder is demoted. Do other churches conduct themselves in such a furtive manner? Apart from maybe Mormons and Scientologists. I am talking about regular churches. Do any regular denominations behave like that? I don't think so.

The elder's book and other organisational guidebooks contain rules that ordinary members don't even know exist! Like all the tedious shades of "loose conduct". How many ordinary JWs know you can get disfellowshipped for touching breasts? Or that gay porn is serious but a little straight porn is okay? It's in the guidebook and letters, but not for ordinary members to consult. What a bizarre way to run any sort of association.

Then there is the ludicrous situation that regular JWs don't even know how major decisions are decided upon in the organisation because the decision making procedure of the Governing Body is shrouded in mystery. What other church is there where the ordinary members don't even know how doctrines and policies are arrived at? Presbyterians have votes and Episcopalians have bishops to make decisions. Ordinary members, even if they are not involved, at least know how the system works and decisions are made. The only reason JWs know that the Governing Body operates on votes and a two thirds majority system is because a defector wrote about it.

It's a secretive system designed to avoid accountability, make elders feel as if they are important, and give mundane structural processes an aura of mystical "theocratic" specialness.

And it worked pretty well for decades. But the Information Age is taking its toll.

Now everyone who wants to look for them has access to the secret elder's book, the secret Circuit Overseer book and various branch books, not to mention hundreds of internal letters, forms, videos, talks. The whole thing. Their whole pathetic furtive web of self-important graduated knowledge is laid bare for the whole world to see.

If they aspired to be a secret society they certainly aren't one anyone more.

9

Russellites ----> Bible Students ----> Jehovah's Witnesses

by Wild_Thing in

jw
friends

in my experience, the jws always seemed to shy away from much association from the term "russellites".

most are wiling to accept that bible students took on the name jehovah's witnesses, but they seem to disavow much association with the term "russellites".. is this perception true?

does anyone know if there is anything in their literature after 1931 where they admit they are the same group as the russellites?

slimboyfat

Wow Oroborus21 how is your project for JW renewal coming on?

It seems to be going in the opposite direction.

67

Recent mistakes of the Governing Body contributing to the decline of JWs

by slimboyfat in

they have made so many strategical mistakes it's hard to keep track.

some changes within the last decade or so that are contributing to declining numbers of jws:.

1. elimination of book study groups, the most informal, enjoyable and sociable of the jw meetings, contributed to loss of sense of community among jws.. 2. policy of consolidating kingdom halls.

slimboyfat

They have made so many strategical mistakes it's hard to keep track.

Some changes within the last decade or so that are contributing to declining numbers of JWs:

1. Elimination of book study groups, the most informal, enjoyable and sociable of the JW meetings, contributed to loss of sense of community among JWs.

2. Policy of consolidating Kingdom Halls. I know someone in Europe who has been assigned to three different congregations in the past three years because of consolidation. Now she knows hardly anyone and has stopped attending regularly. Has this happened elsewhere?

3. Abysmal handling of abuse problem both in policy terms and media relations. Many JWs are reading reports in the media and can't help but agree with the criticisms made of official policy.

4. Cart Witnessing is so outrageously unproductive it is clearly demoralising to even the most longstanding JW stalwarts. I know one JW who has stopped preaching altogether after getting fed up with it.

5. The new generation teaching is so embarrassingly stupid that even the most loyal JW is not interested in discussing or defending it on any meaningful level.

6. Crass videos that imply children should give their pocket money, people who leave JWs are useless pieces of bread, gay people need to dispose of the gay at the new system check in. The GB stepped out from behind the curtain and for many the spell is broken.

Please add your own!

Maybe JWs were due to begin declining anyway, but these changes probably helped contribute to decline. I am really interested to see the reports for next couple of years. If they continue publishing the numbers!

15

Moore's Law And The Survival Of The Watchtower Corporation? When Will Instant Processing Push These Dumb Bastard Into Bankruptcy?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

the internet value increases with this moore's law doubling effect and information is there for the picking.

how long do you think these old geezers on the governing body can keep this currant generation of members in the darkness of stupidity?

the human mind while it has it's fault will pick up on fraud at least on the unconscious level and stop giving time and money to these clowns.

slimboyfat

I agree that technology will make (is making) the Watchtower bankrupt, but not (mainly) because of exposure of their flaws on the Internet.

The Watchtower Society was essentially a book publishing business. The first hammer blow came in the 1990s when they had to stop cover charges on the literature. But the Internet and digital content is the coup de grace. Everyone is on their tablets, they are reducing print publishing dramatically. What next? Consolidation and decline, and pretty rapid too by the look of it.

22

How would the world be different if there were no JWs?

by JW_Rogue in

i think this would be a great question to ask active jws.

they love to say how the world would be so different if everyone was a jw.

however, what if we flip the question and ask, would the world really be much different if the jw faith never came into existence?

slimboyfat

Has anyone ever worked out how many millions of trees it took to produce all the WT literature over the past 140 years?

16

Got the personal invite to the D.C

by Phizzy in

a nice jw old boy knocked the door and asked me how i was, said they were giving out invites, i refrained from mocking him for the total waste of time such "work" is.. he mentioned that " we don't know when the end will come" , so i just said i was sure my new grandson would grow up, go to university, get a good job and his kids would do the same, by which time i shall be long gone.. "you are sure of that ?

" asked the jw, "oh yes", i replied.. i know we cannot be sure of anything, except death and taxes, but there is loads of evidence that my scenario may well play out, there is no single shred of evidence for an "end to the system" as envisaged by jw's, their weird view coming from a totally discredited source, the bible and mainly its final book, what nonsense..

slimboyfat

The real deterrent for an all-out nuclear war is that there are no winners. Nobody will come out on the other end with more land, or more money, or more oil, or more prestige. it's all gone.

In what way is this a deterrent to a suicidal religious fanatic in control of weapons, or one who works out how to hack the nuclear arsenal of a nuclear power? Or to a secular dictator whose back is against the wall with nothing personally left to lose?

Most rational people in almost all situations would of course never use nuclear weapons. Unfortunatley this does not cover all people or all situations. It's a waiting game.

If you think nuclear war is highly unlikely, surely the historical examples when we came very close should cause some pause for thought. Like the Russian nuclear submarine under fire during the Cuban missile crisis, when two out of the three Russian generals wanted to respond with nuclear weapons. Or the various false alarms that were only recognised at various late stages. Or the war between India and Pakistan that could easily have escalated.

16

Got the personal invite to the D.C

by Phizzy in

a nice jw old boy knocked the door and asked me how i was, said they were giving out invites, i refrained from mocking him for the total waste of time such "work" is.. he mentioned that " we don't know when the end will come" , so i just said i was sure my new grandson would grow up, go to university, get a good job and his kids would do the same, by which time i shall be long gone.. "you are sure of that ?

" asked the jw, "oh yes", i replied.. i know we cannot be sure of anything, except death and taxes, but there is loads of evidence that my scenario may well play out, there is no single shred of evidence for an "end to the system" as envisaged by jw's, their weird view coming from a totally discredited source, the bible and mainly its final book, what nonsense..

slimboyfat

Steve, the "21st century" comment may be similar in form to the infamous WT statement about the 20th century that was later revised, but utterly different in content and probability, I would suggest.

All generations view their own time as unique and are aware of new risks. But the invention of the nuclear bomb was a game changer. Humans now have the ability to end our planetary civilisation in minutes. We have come incredibly close to doing so a number of times. It would be foolish to think we will not come close again, or that we will avert the worst every time. It's just one of those things better not to think too much about I suppose, but nevertheless very real.

Astronomer Martin Rees gave various scenarios and reasons for suspecting humans would not last another century, but by far the most worrysome to me is nuclear conflagration.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Our-Final-Century-Civilisation-Twenty-first/dp/0099436868

https://youtu.be/3qF26MbYgOA