slimboyfat

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Posts by slimboyfat

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  57

  How can one poison a goldfish?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  .

  ...with inconspicuous amounts of a household substance?

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  slimboyfat

  ...with inconspicuous amounts of a household substance?
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  81

  Apostasy - A Racist Movement?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  firpo carr argues that while many white apostates claim to highlight so-called 'racist' remarks and terminology in the watchtower literature, most such apostates are in fact white and have little real interest in black issues.

  they are only interested in the issue in so far as they can use it to promote white anti-witness propaganda, whereas a high percentage of loyal witnesses are black.

  i know that all the terms of my topic are debatable: apostacy is a witness term of derogation; apostates probably are mostly liberal and not racist (essentially); and they are not a 'movement' in any case.

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  slimboyfat

  
  
  1. Witnesses are disproportionately Black. How do I know?
  

  
  
  Well, Firpo Carr quotes Werner Cohn on page 41 of his book "Jehovah's Witnesses: The African American Enigma - A Contemporary Study, Vol. 1", as stating that in the US "membership of the organization was approximately 50% negro." Yet Cohn has been undermined in a number of respects in his scholarship on the Witnesses (See James Backford "Trumpet of Prophecy"), and his figures appear to be merely estimates based on his own observation. However more credible evidence for the disproportionate number of Black members can be found in the most recent edition of James Penton's book "Apocalypse Delayed", page 388, n. 90 where he states that a recent Convention discourse revealed that Blacks account for 18% of the membership in the US, compared with 12% of Blacks in the general population. That represents a significant over-representation of Blacks in the Witness community.
  

  
  
  2. Apostates are disproportionately white. Evidence?
  

  
  
  Showing that apostates are predominantly white is more tricky. Raw figures on the relative race percentiles of defectors would be impossible to gather due to the nebulous nature of the 'apostate movement', to the extent that such can even be styled. Nevertheless, it is an easier task to perform a search for Black's represented among apostate leaders who have published anti-Witness tracts: Raymond Franz, James Penton, Jerry Bergman, Randal Watters, Edmond Gruss... they are all white. I struggle to think of any apostate leaders who are black. Since nearly 20% of Witnesses are Black, we would expect at least some Blacks represented among prominent ex-Witnesses. Can anyone thing of any?
  

  
  
  Interestingly, the Witness apologetics scene is contrastingly small compared with that of published apostates, yet among their depleted ranks there are at least two influential Black proponents: Edgar Foster and Firpo Carr himself. In the absense of firm data for apostates, I submit that their virtual absense from the high-profile apostate scene is at least an indication that Blacks are under-represented in the apostate ranks compared with among Jehovah's Witnesses.
  

  
  
  Thanks for hearing me out...
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  81

  Apostasy - A Racist Movement?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  firpo carr argues that while many white apostates claim to highlight so-called 'racist' remarks and terminology in the watchtower literature, most such apostates are in fact white and have little real interest in black issues.

  they are only interested in the issue in so far as they can use it to promote white anti-witness propaganda, whereas a high percentage of loyal witnesses are black.

  i know that all the terms of my topic are debatable: apostacy is a witness term of derogation; apostates probably are mostly liberal and not racist (essentially); and they are not a 'movement' in any case.

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  slimboyfat

  Witnesses are predominantly Black.

  Apostates are predominantly white.

  White apostates claim to highlight black issues in the Watchtower literature out of concern against racism, but are really using the material to promote their white apostate agenda against Black Witnesses.
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  19

  Voting on the Governing Body due to advanced age

  by frankiespeakin in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i think we need to remember that most of the gb are about ready to kick the bucket, and that effects the way they will try to steer the organization because they have the majority of the vote they are not thinking very long term.. they must know all thier failed predictions and that the end is not really close,, so really they are concerned only about thier own a$$es and want to have a nice position of power and prestiegde up until they die.

  they really don't give a rat ass what happens to the org or the publishers when they are dead and gone.

  the younger ones(minority) may have concerns that stretch a little more into the future, but only as far as they personally will live.. if we keep in mind the advanced age of these men we may better understand thier voting patern, which should reflect each ones private concerns.

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  slimboyfat

  I think it is a terrible mistake to assume that governing body members do not believe it is the truth.

  Such cynicism tells me more about how far some apostates have travelled in their bitterness than it does about the real attitudes of those at the top of the organisation.
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  81

  Apostasy - A Racist Movement?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  firpo carr argues that while many white apostates claim to highlight so-called 'racist' remarks and terminology in the watchtower literature, most such apostates are in fact white and have little real interest in black issues.

  they are only interested in the issue in so far as they can use it to promote white anti-witness propaganda, whereas a high percentage of loyal witnesses are black.

  i know that all the terms of my topic are debatable: apostacy is a witness term of derogation; apostates probably are mostly liberal and not racist (essentially); and they are not a 'movement' in any case.

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  slimboyfat

  
  Firpo Carr argues that while many white apostates claim to highlight so-called 'racist' remarks and terminology in the Watchtower literature, most such apostates are in fact white and have little real interest in Black issues. They are only interested in the issue in so far as they can use it to promote white anti-Witness propaganda, whereas a high percentage of loyal Witnesses are Black.

  I know that all the terms of my topic are debatable: Apostacy is a Witness term of derogation; apostates probably are mostly liberal and not racist (essentially); and they are not a 'movement' in any case. But i think it is worth discussing anyway.
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  35

  ITS MY BIRTHDAY TODAY;Who wants to congratalute me?

  by badboy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ?

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  slimboyfat

  Aren't birthdays pagan?
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  61

  "Theocratic Warfare" - An Apostate Strategy?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  who here had ever heard of this so-called 'doctrine' of "theocratic warfare" when you were a jehovah's witness?

  who has not heard of the so-called doctrine now that you are an apostate?

  so why have witnesses never heard of 'doctrine', yet apostates seem to promote it as the last word on witness standards of honesty, integrity and decency?

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  slimboyfat

  And this relates to the topic, how?
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  61

  "Theocratic Warfare" - An Apostate Strategy?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  who here had ever heard of this so-called 'doctrine' of "theocratic warfare" when you were a jehovah's witness?

  who has not heard of the so-called doctrine now that you are an apostate?

  so why have witnesses never heard of 'doctrine', yet apostates seem to promote it as the last word on witness standards of honesty, integrity and decency?

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  slimboyfat

  Hillary,

  You make good points, sorry for not replying sooner.

  As you long as you are in agreement that Jehovah's Witnesses lie in certain circumstances then this is a non-issue. I am not speaking of evasive action, I am speaking of lying for whatever reason.

  Of course Jehovah's Witnesses can lie just like anyone else. I don't claim that Jehovah's Witnesses never lie - that would be ridiculous. Bergman does not simply claim that Jehovah's Witnesses sometimes lie. What he claims is that they have a major doctrine which they use to justify lying, and that they routinely use this in the courts and in dealing with all non-Witness agencies (and even within the organisation, in fact). The truth is that Jehovah's Witnesses have no such doctrine, and Bergman has cobbled it together from various out-of-context statements about Witnesses who had to lie to officials in very exceptional circumstances, in Nazi Germany and Communist countries.

  Just because Bergman is able to find cases where Witnesses have lied in court does not mean that Witnesses lied because their religion teaches them to lie. That would be like someone claiming the Catholic religion teaches people to rape, and then to prove this you simply produce a case of a Catholic who has raped someone.

  I am sure various Jehovah's Witnesses have lied in court for various reasons, some no doubt even with pressure from Watchtower representatives - but that does not equal a doctrine and a policy of "Theocratic Warfare" as Bergman has constructed. It just means, surprise surprise, that Jehovah's Witnesses sometimes do not live up to the ethical standards they espouse, and are not averse to bending the rules sometimes - just like everyone else.

  The fact is that the Watchtower magazine has only discussed whether Witnesses should lie under oath once and its stance was clear: Witnesses should tell the truth under oath. (look it up)

  As for the infamous example in legal booklet of kids being told that they should not all say they want to be pioneers and so on in court... well if that is all you can come up with in the literature to prove a policy of lying then I think it is pretty lame proof frankly. Ironically it may actually represent one of the society's more honest moments in as much as, while the magazines constantly exhort youths to avoid sports and extracurricular activities and all become pioneers, the simple fact is that a significant proportion of those brought up in Witness households ignore that advice and have absolutely no intention of becoming pioneers!
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  61

  "Theocratic Warfare" - An Apostate Strategy?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  who here had ever heard of this so-called 'doctrine' of "theocratic warfare" when you were a jehovah's witness?

  who has not heard of the so-called doctrine now that you are an apostate?

  so why have witnesses never heard of 'doctrine', yet apostates seem to promote it as the last word on witness standards of honesty, integrity and decency?

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  slimboyfat

  SNG,

  But this relates to another facet of JW deception: they convey very different messages depending on the audience.

  And who does not do this? We all do this in all aspects of our lives - so that we may be understood, and that we may get a sympathetic hearing. Many apostates here are dead against the Witnesses and express their opposition with vehemence among their own kind on this forum. But when some get the chance to try to dissuade current Witnesses from their beliefs what tack to they adopt? Since it is reasonable to assume that the tone used on this forum would switch off the average Witness immediately, it is certainly understandable that apostates try a gentler approach with active Witnesses that may involve initially suppressing their utter disdain for the religion (we have seen many threads along these lines, with useful tactics and so on). Is that dishonest too? They are flip sides of a coin if you ask me, and I see no point in getting all moralistic about. Sure Jehovah's Witnesses adapt their presentation to put themselves in the best light for whichever audience for whom they presenting themselves: strange would it be were it otherwise. They are humans like you and me.

  Misquotation? Well some years ago I actually looked into this quite a bit - especially the Trinity brochure and the Reasoning book. I got books out the library, even from the basement and inter library loan to check some of the references claimed to have been misquoted by various apostate websites and anti-Witness books and tracts. My conclusion is that there are certainly a few (not many) quotes in the Witness publications that I wonder how the author could have honestly presented the material like that. However, most of the time I found that those who had claimed there were so-called 'misquotations' were actually guilty of misrepresenting the source and the Witnesses' use of it. I think this is another aspect that anti-Witnesses (Evangelicals in particular) have overblown and distorted the facts.

  I don't know about the Creation book and all the misquotes that are supposedly in that - you may know more about that than me since you are interested in that subject. From one website I read a long time ago I gather than many of the misquotations from Darwinian sources may have been the result of the Witness author's plagiarism of creationist tracts that in turn misquoted the original sources. So that may be down to laziness and bad scholarship rather than barefaced dishonesty.

  But I don't really see how this all relates the central apostate contention that Jehovah's Witnesses have a major doctrine called "Theocratic Warfare" that supposedly prompts them to lie in court, to the police and in other aspects of public life. I don't see how the 'misquotations' debate fits neatly into this discussion since even people like Bergman have not claimed, so far as I am aware, that 'misquotations' in the literature are part of the "Theocratic Warfare".
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  37

  HATING JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

  by marianne in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  from what i have gathered, you all were once jw's and now hate them or the organization?

  do you still believe in jehovah and love jehovah?

  i have to admit i dont like, actually i rather dislike, some of the sisters in my congregation and i know that's wrong of me, but some of them really think they are better than me and are quite judgemental.

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  slimboyfat

  I am afraid you are right about many apostates.

  I do not hate Jehovah's WItnesses. I rather admire them.