Indeed Ruby there is a lot of evidence that the Yaho form of the divine name was commonly used in the first century, and the preponderance of the evidence is that forms of the divine name were used in the LXX of the period. The question then becomes, why assume that the Christians in this period didn't likewise use the divine name? Other than religious bias against the name, there don't seem to be very good reasons for making that assumption. Have you read the book? It sounds like you have. It's really an amazing book for someone like me, who has been interested in this topic for nearly 20 years, since I was a teenager, and thought I knew most of what there was to know about it. And now to read this book and all the additional evidence it contains about onomatica, Roman and Jewish sources, and from a textual criticism perspective, that shows Yaho was commonly used in the first century and likely used by the first Christians is an eye opener. It is crammed full of interesting information on every page and every footnote.
slimboyfat
JoinedPosts by slimboyfat
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332
The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name
by slimboyfat injehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.
but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .
i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.
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There is always one!
by Isambard Crater ini am pimo but attended the r.c yesterday for family pressure reasons.
a "sister" i've not seen for a while told me her husband is overjoyed because a man he called on recently in the field service suddenly told him he wanted to attend the r.c.
the unusual thing is, this man is a millionaire having built a property portfolio.
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slimboyfat
He and the WT share an interest in property.
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Is There Anywhere To Go for an Outed JW elder/pedophile enabler?
by mrmagic insince the australian royal commission, a lot of jw elders have been outed for either being pedophiles/molesters or for enabling it.
the jw elders who enabled it, are publicly outed to their community online and offline.
it's become a congregational matter with the entire kingdom hall and someone said that this elder would lose his eldership possibly, due to it "being known in the congregation and community" that he enabled child sexual abuse.
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slimboyfat
It seems elders are required to follow the WT rules even against their conscience or good sense.
Yet if following the rules results in embarrassment for the organisation then they are liable to be removed.
Public embarrassment is explicitly identified in the elder guidelines as a major consideration for judicial decisions and appointments and deletions. The organisation seems to be worried about being embarrassed almost above all else.
Which is ironic because, like with the Catholic Church, it's often the attempts to avoid embarrassment that bring about the greatest injustices and the greatest embarrassment in the long run.
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332
The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name
by slimboyfat injehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.
but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .
i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.
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slimboyfat
The text has to reconcile the archaeology and sociology. I do not know if Shaw does this?
Half banana, yes, chapter nine discusses at some length the fragmentary evidence for what kinds of people employed the form of the divine name Iao, how widespread and the social meaning of its use. It draws on existing scholarship and draws parallels with modern diversity of useage.
It's an excellent book and well worth the price. Even as a skeptic, like myself, you sound like someone who would appreciate the detail and nuanced arguments of the book.
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332
The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name
by slimboyfat injehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.
but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .
i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.
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slimboyfat
Have you read the book David Jay? It doesn't sound like it. You seem to misunderstand what it is about. And once more, inexplicably, yet predictably, on past performance, take it as some sort of insult against Jews. What on earth is that all about?
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332
The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name
by slimboyfat injehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.
but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .
i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.
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slimboyfat
Why do people think the pronunciation matters? Nobody says "Jesus" correctly. And in fact since IAW was common in the first century (pronounced like Yaho) then that's not really far away from Jehovah. Especially if you add an extra syllable to make it three syllables. In German it's even closer.
I really don't know much about the pronunciation and I've not read much about it at all. It seems to me that pronunciation varies over time and across language anyway.
I am much more interested in the divine name in the NT and I've read a lot about it.
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332
The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name
by slimboyfat injehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.
but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .
i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.
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slimboyfat
Pretty candid discussion in their main publication on the topic The Divine Name that will Endure Forever:
The position of God's name is unshakeable in the Hebrew Scriptures... With the Christian Greek Scriptures, the "New Testament", the situation is different... no ancient Greek manuscript that we possess today of the books of Matthew to Revelation contains God's name in full. (Page 23)
Acts 15 quotes from the OT and refers to Jehovah. Even the name Jesus itself is a reference to salvation from Jehovah and the early Christians were aware the meaning of Jesus' name. (See Matthew 1:21 for example) Frank Shaw demonstrates that the name was very much current in early Christianity.
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332
The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name
by slimboyfat injehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.
but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .
i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.
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slimboyfat
Well that's odd, since JW publications have discussed the absence of the divine name in NT manuscripts, the evidence that it was in the originals, and the basis for its restoration in the NWT. All any JW need do is read the NWT appendix, among other publications.
I think it's important because it's one of the strong lines of evidence JWs can point to for having the truth. If Acts 15 is correct that God has a named people, then it's difficult to see who qualifies better than JWs. Especially since other Christians don't even recognise the importance of the name even in the context of a text such as Acts which is explicitly about the name. Another strong line of evidence is the fact JWs refuse to kill each other, which one would have thought would be a basic requirement for a Christian community, but which distinguishes JWs from most (notice I didn't say all, don't misquote me) Christians,
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332
The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name
by slimboyfat injehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.
but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .
i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.
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slimboyfat
IAW was used by one break off sect of Jews near the first century
Where is your evidence for this? Frank Shaw's book demonstrates that the name IAW was widely used including sources as diverse as the LXX fragment of Leviticus, Greco-Roman authors, Christian onomastica, Jewish authors, and passages of the NT text itself including Rev 1:8, not to mention the mystical contexts in which the name was later used. Rather than sectarian or parochial this tends to indicate widespread common usage.
jwfacts I appreciate you believe the evidence is not strong enough. JWs and a number of non-JW scholars feel otherwise (including Trobisch who you don't interact with). The book of Acts talks about Jehovah calling out a people from the nations for his name. If these are the last days, and the LXX discoveries, combined with onomastica and other evidence, has brought new attention to Jehovah's name, if a person is inclined to see God's hand in history, it is not difficult to see it here.
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332
The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name
by slimboyfat injehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.
but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .
i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.
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slimboyfat
steve2 I wrote the latest comment above days ago. It made more sense when I wrote it than the context where it now appears abrupt and irrelevant.
jwfacts you write:
In addition, you are misrepresenting Howard at least, who is not dogmatic that the Divine name was in the NT, but suggests it as a possibility.
Which is a bit odd since on page 4 I wrote:
much has been made of the fact George Howard presented his idea as a "theory". It's true he wasn't dogmatic, he didn't need to be. He wasn't a JW and his faith didn't depend on it. But did he believe he was correct about the divine name in the NT? Well obviously he did or else why make the argument and assemble all the evidence to make his case?
Other than agreeing with you explicitly that Howard was not dogmatic, how could I state in any clearer terms that Howard was not dogmatic?
You also say:
such as Watchtower'a beloved BeDuhn, do not support the Divine name in the NT. You have cherry picked the couple you agree with.
Again an odd statement since my opening post explicitly mentioned BeDuhn's opposition since I thought it was fair to do so:
2003 - Manichaean scholar Jason BeDuhn praises the NWT as the most accurate modern translation in his book Truth in Translation but argues that the inclusion of the divine name in the NT is a mistake
Did you actually read my post before accusing me of cherry picking?
steve2 what I am trying to point out is that most scholars are of the view that Kyrios stood in the original NT autographs. But it's certainly worth pointing out thaf this too involves a significant conjecture, since the earliest NT manuscripts do not use Kyrios but rather the nomina sacra abbreviated form KS.
Which is important because some evangelical polemicists state that they straightforwardly accept the earliest manuscript evidence whereas JWs do not. But in fact the earliest manuscripts don't use YHWH, IAW, or Kyrios. Rather they use KS, which no one seems to argue was original.
So the question becomes, not whether the treatment of divine names changed between the NT autographs and the earliest manuscripts witnesses, but how it changed. Evangelicals and JWs are actually in the same boat in the sense that, what appears in the earliest manuscripts is assumed, by both sides, not to match what stood in the original.