I don't know. If you've got one religion that says do the best you can and make the best of your life, and the other that actively discourages you. I'd say that's a non-trivial difference!
slimboyfat
JoinedPosts by slimboyfat
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61
Did others experience this on the ministry or among JWs generally?
by slimboyfat insometimes it's hard to know if our own experience of jws was typical and what features were peculiar to our own area or the individual jws we knew personally.
i was wondering if others experienced this among jws:.
a few times on the ministry, when we were working wealthy areas with large houses, some brothers and sisters would make the comment that they look forward to taking ownership of one of these big houses after armageddon, when the worldly people have vacated them.
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Why do people need religion in this century?
by sweetgrass ini think people need religion because of fear.
fear of death and what will happen at death if they have been good or bad.
people say it gives them hope but is this not born too out of fear of not seeing dead loved ones again, or having a better life in the afterlife?
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slimboyfat
I have been reading Rodney Stark's new book Triumph of Faith, where he makes his argument afresh that religion is alive and well. In fact he says it's doing better than ever, and we are in the middle of a revival of faith.
"When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing in anything.”
Above is a particular quote he likes to use when refuting secularisation, or generally the idea that, as humankind progresses toward greater enlightenment and rationality, it is becoming steadily less religious. He claims that even people who don't go to church still believe in the spiritual. He uses the example of Iceland. On the one hand secularists can point to it as a very secular country, that's stopped going to church, stopped believing traditional Christian teaching, and has a relatively high number of atheists. On the other hand close to half the population of Iceland believe that trolls live in the land. So much so that when they plan a new building they first seek confirmation that they are not building on top of a troll settlement, which would bring terrible luck. Icelanders may have given up on the Christian God but the G K Chesterton rule seems to apply. How does that fit in with the idea that we are progressing toward secularity?
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61
Did others experience this on the ministry or among JWs generally?
by slimboyfat insometimes it's hard to know if our own experience of jws was typical and what features were peculiar to our own area or the individual jws we knew personally.
i was wondering if others experienced this among jws:.
a few times on the ministry, when we were working wealthy areas with large houses, some brothers and sisters would make the comment that they look forward to taking ownership of one of these big houses after armageddon, when the worldly people have vacated them.
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slimboyfat
I think this is a key difference between JWs and Mormons.
If a Mormon sees a big house he'd like to live in he might think: I wonder what I can study and what job I can do to be able to afford that.
A JW might think: if don't study beyond school and give up on a career, maybe I'll please Jehovah enough that he'll let me have that house one day.
That sounds really crass. Is that putting it too strong?
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slimboyfat
I'm glad we've finally got around to discussing this topic. It's a subject we have really neglected on this forum.
I'd also ask:
Does the idea that there is one "correct" way of looking at situations or aspects of the world deserve respect?
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25
Why do people need religion in this century?
by sweetgrass ini think people need religion because of fear.
fear of death and what will happen at death if they have been good or bad.
people say it gives them hope but is this not born too out of fear of not seeing dead loved ones again, or having a better life in the afterlife?
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slimboyfat
Believe it or not some scholars argue religion is more popular than ever.
https://www.amazon.com/Triumph-Faith-World-More-Religious/dp/1610171381/
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61
Did others experience this on the ministry or among JWs generally?
by slimboyfat insometimes it's hard to know if our own experience of jws was typical and what features were peculiar to our own area or the individual jws we knew personally.
i was wondering if others experienced this among jws:.
a few times on the ministry, when we were working wealthy areas with large houses, some brothers and sisters would make the comment that they look forward to taking ownership of one of these big houses after armageddon, when the worldly people have vacated them.
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slimboyfat
I find it interesting that the common JW rebuttal of this idea is technical and textual rather than ethical. Instead of simply saying: "cut that out, it's a crass, selfish and pathetic attitude to have to fellow human beings", they come up with: "the prophet Ezekiel (or some such) says Jehovah will divide the land according to the spiritus tribes, so we can't really know which heathen's house and land we will be allocated once they are all slaughtered".
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61
Did others experience this on the ministry or among JWs generally?
by slimboyfat insometimes it's hard to know if our own experience of jws was typical and what features were peculiar to our own area or the individual jws we knew personally.
i was wondering if others experienced this among jws:.
a few times on the ministry, when we were working wealthy areas with large houses, some brothers and sisters would make the comment that they look forward to taking ownership of one of these big houses after armageddon, when the worldly people have vacated them.
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slimboyfat
Yes notsurewheretogo I remember someone making exactly that response.
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61
Did others experience this on the ministry or among JWs generally?
by slimboyfat insometimes it's hard to know if our own experience of jws was typical and what features were peculiar to our own area or the individual jws we knew personally.
i was wondering if others experienced this among jws:.
a few times on the ministry, when we were working wealthy areas with large houses, some brothers and sisters would make the comment that they look forward to taking ownership of one of these big houses after armageddon, when the worldly people have vacated them.
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slimboyfat
Well I am sure it's not a false memory on my part or something I picked up on the forum only. The reason being I can remember a particular house in the west end one brother laid claim to and am reminded each time I pass it.
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61
Did others experience this on the ministry or among JWs generally?
by slimboyfat insometimes it's hard to know if our own experience of jws was typical and what features were peculiar to our own area or the individual jws we knew personally.
i was wondering if others experienced this among jws:.
a few times on the ministry, when we were working wealthy areas with large houses, some brothers and sisters would make the comment that they look forward to taking ownership of one of these big houses after armageddon, when the worldly people have vacated them.
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slimboyfat
If this topic of conversation is so commonplace I wonder if there's ever been any comment on it in the Watchtower. Has there ever been a study article that said: "quit talking about owning people's houses on the ministry and generally being envious assholes. Just cut it out brothers." Or something meaning that, reading between the lines. -
61
Did others experience this on the ministry or among JWs generally?
by slimboyfat insometimes it's hard to know if our own experience of jws was typical and what features were peculiar to our own area or the individual jws we knew personally.
i was wondering if others experienced this among jws:.
a few times on the ministry, when we were working wealthy areas with large houses, some brothers and sisters would make the comment that they look forward to taking ownership of one of these big houses after armageddon, when the worldly people have vacated them.
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slimboyfat
The reason I bring it up is because I'm reading about the revolutionary Watchtower movement in Africa and one writer mentions that:
"An informer told Stephenson that he had overheard Watchtower adherents discussing ways of equitably dividing among themselves his orchard, farm, house and other property in God's New Era. Stephenson conveyed this distressing news to the local administration. But although the informer had eavesdropped upon a private conversation, he reported no decision to take the path of violent rebellion. The Watchotwer men apparently satisfied themselves with believing and propagating belief, placing their full reliance upon God's future work, in the meantime, purifying their communities of sin."
It's intriguingly difficult to distinguish the universal JW experience from the particular situation here. On one hand many Watchtower adherents in Africa in that period did stray from official Watchotwer teaching and become political agents. Plus it's probably not uncommon for oppressed people to talk about taking ownership in general, quite apart from Watchtower religion.
Nevertheless there is also the sense that what at first might appear extreme, political, revolutionary talk (given the context) in fact is the sort of ordinary, everyday JW discussion that might as well take place during the ministry on the streets of Paris, Melbourne or Manchester.