Posts by steve2

71

'This Generation'

by fairchild in

jw
friends

yes, again... after reading numerous posts on this site and doing some research on my own, i have a strong feeling that my whole belief will soon stand or fall with the understanding of 'this generation'.. matthew 24:3 .."tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?".

matthew 24:7 for nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.. matthew 24:34 truly i say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.. .

generation:noun: group of genetically related organisms constituting a single step in the line of descent noun: the normal time between successive generations example: "they had to wait a generation for that prejudice to fade".

steve2

Hey fairchild, it sounds like you are on the cusp of making an important decision. I hesitate to give advice because so many factors need to be taken into account when deciding to discontinue one's involvement with the JWs. Having said that, and given your own expressed sensitivity to how you might be viewed by the JWs, I'd recommend the slow, fading exit, because JWs sadly would not reciprocate any courtesy you might extend in explaining your situation. You don't need to spell everything out to the JWs; that's what I call playing "the explain game"in which the more you explain, the more puzzled the JWs look and the more deeply anxious you're likely to become and the only outcome is a variation on being rejected and condemned.

Always remember that you are an adult and if you chose to stop going to meetings, that is your business. Little by little, as more time passes and you learn to relax the need to have everything crystal clear in the doctrine department, you'll also become clearer about what you want to do in your life. It will be a painful process, whichever way you decide to go; view the pain - which will pass - as necessary to your personal growth. I always remember what an old colleague said to me a few years ago when I faced "decision time". He wrote: "Which ever path you take, whether to go or stay, there will be pain. You have to allow yourself the time to weigh up which course is going to be better for you in the longer term. No one can decide for you but your real friends will be able to support you in that decision." Fairchild, I wish you well.

72

High rates of depression in Org.

by chuckyy in

i noticed after being a jw for a while that many members of my congregation were having to take antedepressants.

(i counted at least 30 out of 100).

after a few years i too began to have bouts of depression and problems with anxiety.

steve2

Imagine how they felt when the only real change was that they were loaded down with even greater expectations and responsibilities.

Well said. My impression was that the elders were genuinely out of their depth with some of the more significant mental health problems people had, and that the elders so-called helpful admonition, often made an already bad situation worse. In my congregation, a Witness had struggled with suicidal thinking and lo and behold, at the next meeting an elder got up and delivered a little sermon on how people who want to die are ungrateful to Jehovah and all he provides, etc. The suicidal brother was in the audience, went home and hung himself. He left a wife and two children. I believe the elder who gave that talk really believed that it would serve as a wake up call to the suicidal brother, but as is known in mental health circles, there are established guidelines on how to reduce suicide risk. Engendering feelings of guilt and obligation actually intensify the suicidal impulse.

Unfortunately, in my clinical work at the hospital, JWs are not the only religion whose response to mental illness makes it worse. I think of troubled people who have attended Pentecostal church meetings, who've been intensively prayed over and then "sermonized" about satan's influence and then have attempted suicide and sometimes succeeded. It's not always that elders and pastors are callous - many of them are basically sincere, hard-working folk who want to see their brothers and sisters get better. But the mindset fosters unhelpful thinking that exacerbates the problem.

72

High rates of depression in Org.

by chuckyy in

i noticed after being a jw for a while that many members of my congregation were having to take antedepressants.

(i counted at least 30 out of 100).

after a few years i too began to have bouts of depression and problems with anxiety.

steve2

I don't know if they'd be any better anywhere else, though. These are just sick people that would be sick regardless of their faith anywhere.

Doubtfully Yours: What a powerful observation. I came to pretty much the same conclusion in my then local congregation. While there is no denying that the Watchtower's teachings are often antithetical to good mental health, there also seems to be a susceptibility factor at work as well: People who came into the organization, actually brought big problems with them that the elders were powerless to help them constructively address. It makes sense: A religion that focuses on how bad the world is and how there is nothing we can do to help the system is going to attract people of a similar mindset: The "what's the use" moan and groan brigade. The JW message seemed unable to reach into these people's psyche, and so the mental health difficulties remained virtually untouched

Having said this, I also knew that many other people in the congregation would actually be better off simply changing their environment (i.e., getting away from the oppressiveness of the kingdom hall). U/d - you seem to be someone who is not predisposed to depression, but given the right circumstances, would develop it. You found the right solution: leaving. That in itself is an empowering act. But, I have to humbly admit that there were significant numbers of other JWs whose mental health difficulties I suspected would probably persist even once they left the organization. I'm uneasy about "blaming" the Watchtower for this, because some of these people struggled with mental health issues before they became witnesses and some came from families whose members had a history of mood and/or anxiety disorders.

72

High rates of depression in Org.

by chuckyy in

i noticed after being a jw for a while that many members of my congregation were having to take antedepressants.

(i counted at least 30 out of 100).

after a few years i too began to have bouts of depression and problems with anxiety.

steve2

While true that there is mental illness among all faiths and there isn't a lot of "scientific" proof that the Dubs have higher incidence of MI, the opinion of many is not without merit.

I have absolutely no argument with this. Personal experience and observation are valid. What I have more trouble with is those mental health professionals who, based on their clinical experience, make assertions about JWs having higher rates of mental ilness than the general population. As I have stated in earlier posts, such assertions deserve credible scientific corroboration. Beyond this, there is the whole vexed issue of why rates might be higher in one group compared with another. Given that many mental ilnesses have a genetic component, ot could be argued that mentally ill people are attracted to end-times messages, for example. Or that internal stressors induce mental ilness in vulnerable people. Again, people's experiences and observations are valid, but cannot be passed off as if they are universally true, because another person can come along and say, "Hey, I was into drugs and alcohol before I studied with the witnesses. Now, they've helped me clean up my life." And so on and on it goes.

Willyloman, I acknowledge the Watchtower's instructions are an impediment to scientific inquiry, but in its absence (for whatever reason), mental health professionals are better to err on the side of "anecdotal evidence". In other words, because a topic cannot be reliably surveyed does not open the door to my stating that something must be the case (e.g., higher rates of mental ilness among the JWs)

72

High rates of depression in Org.

by chuckyy in

i noticed after being a jw for a while that many members of my congregation were having to take antedepressants.

(i counted at least 30 out of 100).

after a few years i too began to have bouts of depression and problems with anxiety.

steve2

Depression is good. It means the body is starting to assert itself. Depression is a door to authenticity. Unfortunately some don't make it through the door.

Depression is the clinical disorder with the highest rate of suicide and homicide. It is not good, as anyone who has struggled with this disorder or lived with someone struggling with this disorder would testify. Helping a depressed individual begin to sort out their emotions and more constructively express those emotions is good. That is the door to autheniticity. Depression has been called, "Anger against others turned inwards". Therefore, encouraging the sufferer to learn healthier ways of increasing their awareness of their emotions - especially anger which is a wonderfully energising emotion, if used wisely - and helping people learn what their needs are offer constructive ways out of the mire. The clinical research shows that depression responds well to focused cognitive-based therapy.

71

'This Generation'

by fairchild in

jw
friends

yes, again... after reading numerous posts on this site and doing some research on my own, i have a strong feeling that my whole belief will soon stand or fall with the understanding of 'this generation'.. matthew 24:3 .."tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?".

matthew 24:7 for nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.. matthew 24:34 truly i say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.. .

generation:noun: group of genetically related organisms constituting a single step in the line of descent noun: the normal time between successive generations example: "they had to wait a generation for that prejudice to fade".

steve2

Little Toe - I agree with you and am also comfortable with not having answers. How the organized religions play on the need to have everything explained! They then profer the most ludicrous verse-by-verse explanations only to later "refine" them and ultimately toss out the explanations altogether. Look at the myriad of supposedly Biblical interpretations of that psychotic book of Revelation - with each one geared towards specific individuals and events in the current age. Jws have theirs, 7th-Day Adventists have theirs and a look at any Christian book store shows no end to these peculiarly egocentric anaylses. Meanwhile, all the earlier interpretations are nicely forgotten. Given me respectful "not knowing" any day over the neurotic need to understand exactly what a Biblical writer meant when he had his psychotic visions.

72

High rates of depression in Org.

by chuckyy in

i noticed after being a jw for a while that many members of my congregation were having to take antedepressants.

(i counted at least 30 out of 100).

after a few years i too began to have bouts of depression and problems with anxiety.

steve2

On a side note I read a book I think called Secret Sisters about the high rates of depression and hospitalizations in the Mormon Organization. It was a very interesting read. Has anyone written anything like this about JW's?

Good post Why Georgia. I like your balanced approach. I haven't read any books that have specifically focused on rates of mental illness among JWs, although some, such as The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses have discussed in more general mental health problems in the organization (the authors' names elude me at present). I'm inclined to think that rates of depression in the general population are either more visible than they once were (because it's more acceptable nowadays to talk about this topic) or people's compressed competitive lifestyles contribute to an increased incidence.

As I've stated on other posts, I personally don't think any religious group is exempt from mental illness. In fact, a few years ago, whilst browsing at books in a Christian bookstore I cam across a book entitled Why Christians Crack Up. I wished I'd bought it. Has anyone else heard of this book?

I agree that there are significant mental health problems among the Witnesses. But, what sometimes gets to me are ex-JWs who claim that rates of mental illness are higher among the JWs than in the general population. To my knowledge, there is a complete absence of scientific and validated research to back up such comparative assertions.

71

'This Generation'

by fairchild in

jw
friends

yes, again... after reading numerous posts on this site and doing some research on my own, i have a strong feeling that my whole belief will soon stand or fall with the understanding of 'this generation'.. matthew 24:3 .."tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?".

matthew 24:7 for nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.. matthew 24:34 truly i say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.. .

generation:noun: group of genetically related organisms constituting a single step in the line of descent noun: the normal time between successive generations example: "they had to wait a generation for that prejudice to fade".

steve2

Don't you like to learn new things? I do. I think it's fun to destroy every last shred of everything I was ever taught.

Sure enough. But not just for the sake of destroying prior ideas and presumably for what I would consider a good reason. To kick something out simply because it was part of my past learning would be akin to the way JWs get newcomers to reject everything they learnt from the churches.

33

Was Johnny Carson pro JW?

by HappyDad in

jw
friends

does anyone remember one of his shows from the late 1970's when john denver was on the show?

i never saw the show but heard about it in the jw circle (urban legend??).

it was known that john denver hated jw's and during their bantering, carson asked denver about his asking jw's to leave during his concerts.

steve2

Welcome Ashton. Thanks for the confirmation that the John Denver episode is not an urban legend. If I'd been into his music, I would have gotr rid of it after his sick behaviour towards the JWs.

17

Female elders

by glitter in

jw
friends

when did you first realise the society wouldn't allow women to be an ms or an elder?

i remember being seven or eight and playing dolls with an elder's daughter in her bedroom.

my doll was meeting up with her doll at the convention after not seeing each other for a long time.

steve2

It's true: Men glorify themselves in the world of religion and woman do all the hard, often unseen slog. Most of the hard-working pioneers in my congregation in the 1960s were older women. The men, by contrast, got all the publicly visible roles (standing up on stage and pontificating about what "we" should all be doing). I wonder if it's any different in religions who have female "figureheads" such as the seventh-day adventists, christian scientists or theosophists. Somehow, I imagine the men do all the Big Important stuff, while the women busy themselves in the kitchens or community halls.