"Catholic" JWs, I like that. I wonder if I knew dubs while I was in that had such differing beliefs and their own little created corners of the world that revolved around their independent JW mental status. I can kind of see how if one can make it what they want, not what it is, then perhaps it's easier to believe (after all, it's your own personal version) and stay.
dubstepped
JoinedPosts by dubstepped
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43
My Personal Atheist Manifesto?
by dubstepped inso, i have a guy that is emailing me after listening to my podcast series "this jw life" about my life story before, during, and after being a jw.
this guy happens to be an elder and pioneer serving where the need is greater.
i love this guy.
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43
My Personal Atheist Manifesto?
by dubstepped inso, i have a guy that is emailing me after listening to my podcast series "this jw life" about my life story before, during, and after being a jw.
this guy happens to be an elder and pioneer serving where the need is greater.
i love this guy.
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dubstepped
Alright, so hopefully those that were following along (if anyone really is) are caught up. I haven't heard back and I'm wondering if I will after this last email. Obviously I'm only posting excerpts. I left the personal niceties out. I like this guy. I think he means well, and I think he's sincere. I think many that believe are. I have no problem with that at all. I do have some problem with people that are sincere but that support such an awful organization that I feel does so little actual good in the world like the JWs, but still, he's trying to do good in his own way and working with what he has today. Who knows what mental and emotional and other tools he may have in the future that might help him leave the cult and maybe he does carry on belief in god, that's fine too. I hope I hear back, but I may have pushed too hard with my questioning. I only thought that if it was fair for him to question me, I should be able to do likewise, even if I maybe went too far with it for him. If I hear back I may update the conversation. He could just be busy with dub stuff, as he was for a bit last time.
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My Personal Atheist Manifesto?
by dubstepped inso, i have a guy that is emailing me after listening to my podcast series "this jw life" about my life story before, during, and after being a jw.
this guy happens to be an elder and pioneer serving where the need is greater.
i love this guy.
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dubstepped
So what I found fascinating here is that he is an apologist for the JWs, but it seems like he's invented his own version of the cult inside the cult. Like he has his own rules, his own little circle of people that play by those rules, and somehow he's insulated from the rest of the cult. I mean, he has to hide in order to contact me so that his wife doesn't find out. It's so interesting to me. I'll post my reply to him below:
I think a fundamental difference between you and I resides in the way that you kept saying that you "choose to believe". At a point I too chose to believe, and once I realized how much I was lied to and what was kept from me, I could no longer make that choice. I can't just believe without some solid evidence, and choosing belief means taking a leap of faith for me, something that I can no longer do. I have no trust.So then, I have to ask. Why do you have this trust? You've seen so much exposed from the organization. Or do you have trust? It honestly seems like you aren't really one of Jehovah's Witnesses, you're definitely going against direction from the faithful slave so you can't trust them implicitly as you are supposed to as a faithful servant of Jehovah. It seems like you're kind of an independent JW, a Christian more than a JW. I say that because Jehovah's Witnesses, while believing in Jesus, call themselves Christians but don't seem to exhibit his qualities but more reflect the authoritarian God that they name themselves after. Christians seem to show more mercy and love for everyone than JWs do. It was a big point of contention for my wife, when she was trying to reconcile the Jehovah of the Hebrew Scriptures with the Jesus of the Christian Greek scriptures. Jesus does not reflect the vindictive and violent God of the first half of the Bible.What do you think about supporting an organization that you know has created a culture where children are abused and members are not encouraged to go to the police? Why is the organization handling criminal matters in the first place? Does it bother you? How do you reconcile that?You're talking to me. You know that you're supposed to shun me. On one of the recent JW Broadcasting videos the member of the governing body literally threw people like me away in a demonstration like trash into a wastebasket. My parents threw me away, as did my siblings, as I had done to my own brother. My wife's family threw her away. Witnesses throw away their parents, their children, friends, other relatives, etc. You and I know that the organization says that it is loving, but you know that it's not, as you're here sending your love. You know that Jesus never shunned. How do you support this when it goes against who you are?I applaud you and have great respect for what you're doing in trying to be authentically you. You've been able to pick and choose what aligns with your core values and what doesn't and created this hybrid JW culture for yourself. Obviously it goes against the direction of the faithful slave, and you have worked that out somehow internally to be consistent with who you are. How do you feel about having to hide these discussions and these things that you read or watch? Even if it doesn't bother you, does it bother you that it would bother those around you? In other words, you're doing such an amazing job of being authentic, but yet it seems like you still really can't be authentic in the religion, not totally.Oh, and one last thing that I have to ask. Why DO you believe in Jehovah? I don't mean because people are helped by the Bible, as they are hurt too, as you're talking to one such person out of many, not to mention the numerous deaths surrounding the book and divisive beliefs over the centuries. And I don't mean a higher intelligence necessarily, as even I think there could be something out there greater than us humans, though I don't call that possibility God. And I don't mean that we're in the last days because of prophecy, because it isn't fair that if North Korea looks irritated then it's a sign and if North Korea looks like peace is coming then that's a sign, because it can't be both ways, and we could always be living during the Crusades or at times where the lifespan was super short and the common flu could wipe out millions. And I don't mean that it is has worked for you on some level, giving you a life that feels good or family and friends because so many people on the outside have that same thing too. And I don't mean because you love helping people because there are charities around the world that truly help people on a daily basis and people like me that clearly have a heart to help but that don't believe at all.So, why do you believe in Jehovah, specifically? Why that god out of all of the others? Why that god with his track record of killing more people in the Bible than Satan? Why that god despite his not reflecting Jesus? What qualities of Jehovah draw you, not qualities seen in someone like Jesus that are attributed to Jehovah, but why do you put your life, your trust, your choice, your everything in Jehovah? You told me a lot of what feel to be ancillary reasons, but why specifically Jehovah?I ask these questions because I'm genuinely interested. Again, like you I'm not trying to be condescending. I just see things differently. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I have no specific belief to convert anyone to. You've just described so much that sounds really tough surrounding the organization that you called yourself an "apologist" for, and haven't really given it enough praise to make it sound worth devoting one's everything to, hanging one's hopes on, and supporting while so many are hurt by it. I think I'm looking for those definitive reasons. Or maybe it's kind of what you said, it is a choice, it is something you feel is right but can't really put down in so many words.I did always struggle to connect. I asked my mom one time how I was supposed to connect to a god that I couldn't see, couldn't feel or talk to directly, a god that was all powerful but that there was nothing I could clearly connect to? I spent so long chasing that feeling. The only time I got it was when I was paying off the enormous tax debt and even then I wasn't doing what I was "supposed" to do according to the organization. I felt like I was being blessed despite the organization, not because of them, and it messed with my head. Then later I would just attribute all of that to the fact that I was doing smarter things and that therefore better things happened in my life. So even my connection that I thought I had ended up to be fleeting.Oh, and as an aside, you make a good point that evolution doesn't necessarily describe what started everything. It only shows how things changed, or evolved, throughout time. The point of origin, the abiogenesis, is something that still isn't understood. That doesn't necessarily mean that God was the start, not the God of the Bible, but it could. Even science has to leave room for that possibility. Science is interested in finding the truth, and challenging it over and over again, which is why even gravity is a theory. It is accepted as general truth, but it still must be challenged. They must allow for that. They can't explain abiogenesis anymore than a believer can explain how Jehovah could have existed forever, eternally, going back in time, with no beginning and no end. So not being able to explain something goes both ways. -
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My Personal Atheist Manifesto?
by dubstepped inso, i have a guy that is emailing me after listening to my podcast series "this jw life" about my life story before, during, and after being a jw.
this guy happens to be an elder and pioneer serving where the need is greater.
i love this guy.
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dubstepped
So I wanted to come back here and post the reply that I got to the "manifesto" that I posted initially. Remember, this was in response to this elder/pioneer serving where the need is greater that listens to my podcasts and all kinds of apostate stuff. He knows all about the UN, Crisis of Conscience, etc. He is the most unique JW I've ever spoken to, and the fact that he sought me out and has been so nice without trying to be preachy is an anomaly. I could give some more personal details but I'd never want to out the guy or even risk it, and he's been through a lot in the organization that he is still an admitted apologist for. But his question to me was about why I don't believe in god anymore. I answered as in the first post here, and most of his response to that part in particular is below:
So, why am I a Jdub? Well my faith & belief, my mother is a reason, my family another,Obviously you know the structure so, friends in the congregation as well.What do I believe this to be? It’s my choice, I put faith in it because I choose to.Mike we could go back and forth with arguments, objections, reasonings etc all day long and we both would be where we are.Here is my truth, or my view on it.First of all I choose to believe in something beyond me, a higher power, an intelligence.It’s easier and for me & a smaller leap of faith to believe it’s all created rather then arising from nothing.I choose to believe that the bible is a supernatural book, it can and does change lives.I think from what I see and hear that we are in the last days, now who will God save?Will we be in paradise treading on billions of dead bodies? I can’t imagine that, Jesus did say you will by no means complete the circuit of cities before He arrived.So not everyone will know or hear about the message. Which means they’re in Gods hands. The Israelites left Egypt with some Egyptians, pagan people who at the last minute saw Jehovah was the true God.For me this hasn’t been easy at times, that’s an understatement, but it’s given me a good life, I’ve stayed with my family, not left them as my father did, I have a happy marriage, I have a few true and genuine friends, about 5. Lots of other acquaintances.I love people, I love helping people, it’s the way I’m wired, and if someone comes to me with a problem because they feel guilty and the need to self report, it actually happened just this week, I will always say either don’t worry I’ve done that too, or if I can’t say that I will try to understand them and reassure them of my love and sympathy.I’ve never pulled rank or thrown my weight around as an “elder” it’s an ugly abuse of power.I don’t feel guilty when I take a holiday or a day off or visit a cathedral, or watch things a lot wouldn’t, play tomb raider etc, plus communicating with you, I’ve got my own mind on things.Listening to your stories makes me think the truth is a bit different in the states, stricter, more severe.The way we’ve raised our family is the same as my mother raised me, plus i would add I don’t take myself at all seriously, we laugh at Steven letts rubber face & have fun pausing him & trying the same expressions, some things we hear and are taught we like & agree with, others we don’t & wait to see how things turn out. Many of us in my local Cong and family said right at the beginning that overlapping generations thing is going to have to change. I’m in no way a perfectionist and I don’t expect that of others.I’m sure there are loads of disfellowshipped ones going to survive the end/be resurrected, I serve a loving God not a high performance demanding one.I honestly have watched a lot of the YouTube videos, John Cedars, “wake up testaments” etc. and I’m thinking hmmm they were all guilt tripped growing up, or felt that they were never good enough, that’s not been my experience, and I think maybe it’s more of an American thing than an English thing, I suppose were more cynical over here? If anyone I talk to ever expresses that to me I just reassure them what they’re already doing is enough, because it is. If they want to do more good for them, if not good for them, we can’t earn salvation through any amount of work.I’m happy where I am at the moment, I know about the UN scandal, and other things etc.However I think being a Jdub has been good for me, most of the people I come across are genuine, yes there are some Judas like Jdubs, we protect ourselves by avoiding troubled ones, we’ve been in a few congregations and the basic group mentality is the same, some high performers, some slackers, some genuine, some troubled.Anyway mate that’s me so far on this day of this crazy life.What if we get to the end of it, die & there is nothing for eternity? What if what I’m doing is a load of rubbish? What if we evolved?For me the good outweighs the bad, I see people change for the better in many ways,Me too. It’s a good way of life for me, so for now I’m sticking with it. -
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Sometimes it's the little things....
by dubstepped ini'm listening to a podcast where a former elder describes how another elder conducted the watchtower study about hyperbole.
the elder called it hyper-bowl.
soon the whole congregation called it hyper-bowl.
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dubstepped
TD - I started a thread a few years back when there were a handful of apologists here. It was kinda sad.....
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/195895/thought-control-simple-test-jwsHaha, excellent thread. I read through a few pages. Poor Alice. For JWs, 2+2=5 if the governing body says so. I heard a quote from some elder that basically said that if the GB told him that the sky was red, then it was red, or something to that effect. I love 1984, such a great book.
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Sometimes it's the little things....
by dubstepped ini'm listening to a podcast where a former elder describes how another elder conducted the watchtower study about hyperbole.
the elder called it hyper-bowl.
soon the whole congregation called it hyper-bowl.
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dubstepped
@Morpheus - Yanny :)
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Sometimes it's the little things....
by dubstepped ini'm listening to a podcast where a former elder describes how another elder conducted the watchtower study about hyperbole.
the elder called it hyper-bowl.
soon the whole congregation called it hyper-bowl.
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dubstepped
I'm listening to a podcast where a former elder describes how another elder conducted the Watchtower study about hyperbole. The elder called it hyper-bowl. Soon the whole congregation called it hyper-bowl. A little culty, no? One man says a word wrong and everyone does it.
It made me think about how sometimes the brother in sound would play the wrong song but how many drones would sit there trying to make the words fit the wrong tune, and how embarrassingly long it would go on. Yep, a little culty.
I had a friend that insisted on saying Isaiah, not as eye-zay-uh, but as eye-z-eye-uh because that's how the brother on the Bible tapes said it. After all, we were supposed to look to them for how to pronounce things. I brought out that the brother also said zeb-ra instead of zee-bra as we would say and that he just had a different accent. Still, he was sticking with the tapes, getting others to follow along with him. Again, a little culty.
So, got any other little examples like that? Sometimes we can see just how much we were sheeple or mindless followers through these small things. I had never thought about it before and found it interesting.
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Material such as the film at the end of this years convention confirms that I was right to take my kids out the religion
by jambon1 init’s quite affirming to see the horrific material that they’re serving up at the convention this year.
aside from blatant homophobia, the scenes at the end of the convention that are discussed on another thread stoop to new levels of fear mongering.
it seems to occur to nobody inside the organisation that this kind of material could trigger fear, deprsssion, anxiety, stress.
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dubstepped
Many are absolutely phobic. You're correct in that it's not the teaching to be phobic, but it results in such. I knew people that wouldn't clean for gay couples, people that talked about us because we did, and my dad's last conversation with me was him screaming at me for "loving the gays" because he had pent up anger at me for a conversation years earlier where I defended them. Again, the admonition may not be to become phobic, but in my view it created a huge culture of homophobia. I knew so many people that were just that. I've read many experiences that expressed the same. So much anxiety, and frankly disgust for, people's sexuality and who they were, especially if they didn't fit the definitions of masculine and feminine espoused in the publications.
I think it's interesting to compare the doctrine to the culture that it produces in most in the cult. There was so much drama around sexuality.
Just like this video, how at face value they're telling you not to worry, Jesus will ride in to save you, but the emotion of the video is one of intensity, fear, anxiety. They know what they produce, and are so good they don't have to say it directly, which is all part of the manipulation.
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Material such as the film at the end of this years convention confirms that I was right to take my kids out the religion
by jambon1 init’s quite affirming to see the horrific material that they’re serving up at the convention this year.
aside from blatant homophobia, the scenes at the end of the convention that are discussed on another thread stoop to new levels of fear mongering.
it seems to occur to nobody inside the organisation that this kind of material could trigger fear, deprsssion, anxiety, stress.
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dubstepped
My wife's father is NOT going to be okay with this. The man skipped all the parts in the Bible that were too violent, including Jesus' death. He would fast forward through drama tapes that they'd listen too. Of course, it's not like he's going to leave, but it will get to him.
Dubs are raising their emotional propaganda game. They'll drive a few away, and drive most deeper in.
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Two May 19th articles about Lauren Stuart who killed her husband & two children-left a video & suicide note blaming sexual abuse & exclusion
by AndersonsInfo inhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5748191/woman-blamed-sexual-abuse-ostracism-jehovahs-witness-reasons-killing-suicide.html.
revealed: ex-jehovah's witness turned model, 45, left a video and suicide note blaming childhood sex abuse and exclusion from her religion for killing her husband and children.
lauren stuart of keego harbor, michigan had been researching suicide methods on youtube and videos on how to use a glock for weeks .
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dubstepped
I can speak to it because on a level I was it. My wife would ask something of me for years that I could never understand, and that was a word called empathy, of which I had none. I didn't get it at all. I had to learn it, or maybe re-learn it. I still struggle at times and in areas but I get it now.