I appreciate everyone's comments above. Except Fred, of course, who still needs to grow up. What the Society took from us, what we handed over to them, is immeasurable. I started associating in late 1968 and was DA'd in 1995, or about 27 years. I am 50 now. And, while I have taken my life back, and it is within my control, nevertheless, the Big-O (Borg) is still affecting my life ... but it is now on my terms. I discovered that they impacted, usually negatively, almost every aspect of our lives. Taking our lives back is rarely a quick matter, unless we were associated a very short time. As noted above, it is a process, that takes many years, because each step is a time of discovery. I will post more on this tomorrow. - Amazing
Amazing
JoinedPosts by Amazing
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TAKING OUR LIVES BACK #1
by Amazing intaking our lives back #1 .
in addition to my deceptive jw elders and justice series, i also feel that a series on taking our lives back would be useful, and will bring in a lot of shared thoughts.
one of the things that i became aware of as i left the organization of jehovahs witnesses is all that had been lost, never accomplished, or stolen because of time, money and energy devoted to the interests of the watch tower organization.
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Question for any elder/recent ex-elder
by OrangeBlossom inthe elders keep dropping by every couple of saturday's after bookstudy to check on us and try to encourage us back to meetings.
it has worked out that my husband has been gone when they visit so they keep coming back hoping to catch him sometime.
anyway, i told my hubby that we should at least go to the meetings once a week to keep them off our trail, which i went this past thursday night and wouldn't you know it the one elder approached me and mentioned that they still want to sit down with us and go over an article on meeting attendance.
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Amazing
Hi Orange: While I did serve as an Elder, I have been out a few years, but I think I can give you some thoughts that will help. Many years ago, one could escape quietly by ceasing meeting attendance, moving without a forwarding address, and things like that.
In the early 1990s, the Society made it an official 'offense' to miss meetings, by labeling JWs as 'worldly' for doing so. This naturally has led to suspecting JWs who miss meetings as potential apostates. The Society is well aware of the tactics many ex-JWs have used to try and leave quietly, and they have actively tried to stop this.
For example, a man used to be able to resign as an Elder, start missing meetings gredually, and then eventually be forgotten about. But, now the Society will not accept a simple resignation without serious justification by the Elder.
I recommend that if you are trying to slip away quietly, then attend the Sunday meeting and maybe the TMS/Service meetings regularly for a about 3 or 4 weeks. Then, start missing one meeting, and then reduce attendance to every other meeting.
As some posted above, make excuses to be unavailable. Keep these truthful and sincere. Elders are good at sniffing out excuse-itis. If you can, keep your car in your garage, with draps over any window into the garage. When you hear the doorbell ring, learn to check who it is from an angle that will not be seen, and then if it is the Elders, don't answer. Hold this circumspect position for at least 20 to 30 minmutes after they leave.
When I was an Elder, and we were making check-up shepherding calls, we would glance into the windows and see if we could tell if anyone was home. We would drive around the block and make a call or two, and then return to see if we could catch people off guard. that is how we caught one 'sister' with a worldly man visiting at her home. We eventually Disfellowshipped her over the phone. [Hey, that is another one for my Justice Series.] LOL
I would also have a caller-ID on your phone to assure who it is that is calling, or a recorder. You can monitor the caller and not answer. Elders will leave messages, but they will not contain anything damning. So, at some time, like Saturday morning about 10:30 Am, while they are out in Service, return their call and say you were sorry you missed them, but leave nothing about when you will next be available.
If the Elder does not have an answering machine, and he later stops you on the street, you can always say you called but could not leave a message without an answering machine.
If you get a First Class letter (regular mail), you can take different approaches. You can mark it, "Return to Sender", and say on the envelop that the addressee is not at this address. But that is lying. So, I don't recopmmend it. You can drop it in the street US Mail boxes and mark on the envelop, UNable to deliever. That is kind of true, and a toss up as to how you view this. Or you can keep the letter and use it as evidence of harassment. BUT, never under any circumstance ever write anyting to the Elders or the Society. It WILL be used against you. If anything has to be written, have an attorney do it.
Another tactic we used as Elders is to send Certified or Registered Mail. This makes it harder to deal with. What you can do is if the postman knocks at your door, don't answer, because it is likely a certified letter that you will be asked to sign for. Rather, let the postman leave you the slip notice that you have mail at the post office. Then, what I have done is to go to the post office and ask for the item. When they bring out a certified letter from the Elders, then tell the postman at the counter that it must be an error, and then decline to receive it. Don't sign for anything from them.
Finally, sometimes the Elders will have the Society write to you. This can be handled the same way. But there is an exception. Sometimes the Society's lawyers will send a certified letter as though it came from some private law office. [This will be posted in my next Deceptive JW Elders series] But the Law office will be from the east coast, usually New York. So, before accepting the Certified Letter, take down the return name and address and call the NY Bar Association or the New York state office that regulates attorney's, and find out about the lawyer and if he/she works for the Society. You can also call the Society's front desk and ask if 'so-and-so is there, and if they say yes, then hang up. be sure to call from a pay phone using a phone card so as to avoid caller ID.
If it turns out that the laweyer is representing the Society, then you can either forget to go back and pcik up the Certified Letter. or if you do obtain it, then get a lawyer and have him/her respond to them.
I recommend that if at all possible, start reducing meetings and look into moving to another town. If employment is an issue, maybe moving across to another part of town without telling the JWs, and they will be forced to abandon their efforts.
Hope some of ths is useful to you. - Amazing
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TAKING OUR LIVES BACK #1
by Amazing intaking our lives back #1 .
in addition to my deceptive jw elders and justice series, i also feel that a series on taking our lives back would be useful, and will bring in a lot of shared thoughts.
one of the things that i became aware of as i left the organization of jehovahs witnesses is all that had been lost, never accomplished, or stolen because of time, money and energy devoted to the interests of the watch tower organization.
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Amazing
TAKING OUR LIVES BACK #1
In addition to my Deceptive JW Elders and Justice Series, I also feel that a series on taking our lives back would be useful, and will bring in a lot of shared thoughts. One of the things that I became aware of as I left the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses is all that had been lost, never accomplished, or stolen because of time, money and energy devoted to the interests of the Watch Tower organization. The following is a brief experience of how I started the process of reclaiming life, and will be followed by many more:
Fear of the Opposite Sex: IN the JW organization, so much paranoia and obsession exists regarding any contact or association with the opposite sex, that they have created an abnormal atmosphere wherein JWs can easily get into trouble with the congregation for minor situations, and can lead to serious psychological problems if left unchecked for years.
As any good JW, I submitted to this, and would, for example, while returning from Field Service with a car group, drive way out of my way to be sure to drop off sisters first, and then brothers to avoid even being alone for a brief period with a sister who was not my wife. I recall being counseled once because I was not able to comply with this standard, and found that I needed to give a lone sister a ride home. She was married and so was I, but not to each other. As Murphy’s Law would have it, the one time I did this, I was seen with her riding up front with me in my van.
A Healing Method: I became so afraid of the opposite sex in any situation where I might be next to a women not my wife, that on my bus trips into San Francisco (a 45 mile ride) I would stand, rather than take the last seat next to a young women. So ...
Even before I started to leave the JWs, and sometime after, when I would be in a situation where I got on a bus, I would make sure to sit next to a good looking woman, and try and reduce my fears. I would engage her in conversation and learn to have normal interaction without fearing that I would be perceived as toying with fornication. I came to realize that a non-JW woman was not going to suddenly raise her dress and let me have it. LOL
The final step on this journey was with one women who was not only extremely attractive, but she still wore mini-skirts to work, and at age 35 was very pleasant to look at. I would often listen to her soft and attractive voice as she would sit behind the bus driver and talk with him.
One day, I finally got up the nerve to sit with her and she was very open and conversant. I did this many times on my way to work. Finally, she and I developed a nice friendship. I learned that I could build a friendship with a non-JW woman, and that it could be good and healthy without fear of it turning into fornication or adultery.
After I moved to the Pacific Northwest, I then changed from going to a barbershop to a beauty salon where a very nice, attractive, and charming lady styled my hair, shampoo, head massage, and all. I went to her for a few years past my being a JW and she talked a great deal with me about my exit process. As it turned out, her daughter was being influenced by some JW family she had. And as a result of my recommending Crisis of Conscience etc. to her, she was able to steer her daughter away from the JWs. As a result of this, we became good friends. She is well educated, and informed on many topics. We are still friends even though I live far away from her.
The act of taking our lives back does not mean that we do destructive things, like experiment with fornication, drugs, or spiritism. Rather, it means doing constructive things that allows us to develop healthy feelings, relationships, enjoyment of sexual things within good common sense and reason, using our own minds and consciences in a free method to find our own personal safe boundaries.
I look back and feel very right and good at what I did to start taking my life back with respect to fearing the opposite sex. There are other issues, such as advanced education, employment promotions, new non-JW friends, eating a birthday cake on the job, sending out Christmas cards, starting a business, redeveloping any talents we have in the arts, literature, or science. Learning that our humanity is good and normal and to be enjoyed to the full ... and that if anything pleases God, it would be that we do this on our own, and not live in a state of perpetual fear and uncertainty, always checking with Elders or the Society or looking over our shoulder fearing someone will mistake the situation.
Amazing
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Perversion of Baptismal Vows
by AlanF inan appendix in the book contains some 120 questions along with hundreds of scriptural "proof texts" that the proselyte is then expected to study.
12 jesus commanded his followers to baptize new disciples in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit.
the following quotation shows what the proselyte is expected to study just prior to baptism:.
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Amazing
Hi Alan: Excellent research and well stated points. The new baptism vow did catch my attention when it was brought into use in 1985. While I was a loyal JW at the time, the new vow did disturb me.
When I left the organization, I was so concerned with just getting my family out, that I did not consider many other issues that would later be useful, such as keeping materials that I turned back in, and carefully crafting certain legal issues. All my workmanship, so to speak, went into my family. But ...
For those of us baptized before 1985 (1970 in my case) we were specifically told by the Baptism Speaker that we were NOT being baptized into an organization nor would be be listed on any membership rolls, as does Christendom, but were only part of God's Kingdom that ruled rom heaven. I am certain that what the speaker stated can be found in WTS literature.
The benefit of that teaching at the time, if I were to employ it now, would be to legally argue that I was never part of the organization, and therefore cannot be disassociated or disfellowshipped. It would be very difficult for the Society to do much about those of us who were baptized before 1985, and have since left the Big-O. We could perhaps fight being shunned.
At least the legal technicality would have made it possible for me to the Society's letter to me, and refute ever being a member, and thus ineligible for Disassociation. It would have created an interesting round of debate, and I wish now I would have tought of doing that. I still could, since I have never been notified by the Elders that they Disassociated me.
I could write to the Society and say that I waited for 6 years to hear back from the Elders after agreeing to meet with them. Then I could say to the Society that I am confused as to why the Elders wanted to Disassociate me, because I was never baptized into God's Spirit-Directed Organization anyway.
In my case, it makes no difference, because I have so few friends remaining in the organization, that I am not as seriously affected as some whose families and life-long friends remain JWs. But, maybe the arguement is worth a try to see what sort of response I would get from the Society. Thanks again. - Amazing
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What is your favorite nickname for the Society?
by slipnslidemaster ini've heard the borg alot.
one of the recent posts had the matrix.
some the firm.. i think that i like the matrix, so far.. what's yours?.
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When I first went to H20, I coined the expression BIG-O, for Big Organization. (I borrowed this from a tire company sign, call Big-O, that is popular on the West Coast. Some have since reminded me that Big-O can mean other things related to sexual experiences. LOL I have at times referred to the Watch Tower as the Witch Tower. But, much of the time, I simply use WTS for ease of typing.
Amazing
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Has anyone felt like leaving God altogether?
by lookingnow22 ini know that the answer is yes, but it would help me to hear your sentiments on this.
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after you decided that the wbts, and thus jw's were not god's chosen earthly organization did you feel like you wanted to leave and forget god altogether?.
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HI Looking: I was a Christian before becoming a JW. When I left the JWs after 25 years, I was determined not to let the WTS beat Jesus Christ out of me, or cause me to lose my sanity. I have made a point of taking back my life.
That said, I have made a number of posts on H20 and I believe some on this forum that express anger toward God, and question his ways, question whether the Bible is fully from God or mostly a work of humans.
I have been away from the WTS informally for 9 years, and formally DA'd (I think) for almost 6 years. In that time I have gone through a whole series of changes in views and emotional ups and downs regarding God, prayer, the Bible and Christianity.
Shortly after I left the JWs, I was very involved in ex-JW activities for about 2 years. Then, I went through a period where I didn't give a damn, and stayed totally away form anything that even smelled of religion, no prayer, no Bible, no nothing. Then, I got curious again about the ex-JW world, and started posting my Justice Series on H20 about pedophiles and other things, and before long, I was back in the thick of it all again.
This time though, with Silent Lambs stepping forward, I am finding a sense of mission to assist in getting at least this issue into the spotlight, and bring the WTS to accountability. But, also, I feel more confortable now in being there for those who are just leaving the WTS and are searching for other ex-JWs to get a sense of balance, a frame of reference in their lives.
I do not accept all that is said about God or in the Bible. It is clear to me that science has shown human were here long before the Bible can chronicla, and that evolution is well demonstrated. Scientific evaluation shows that such things as the Flood of Noah could not have happened, and at best was a small local event.
But, I have not yet considered leaving God, or becoming agnostic or atheist. If I were to do so, I would go as far as agnosticism because it is the less arrogant approach, and the most wise.
Amazing
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What's So Special About These One's?
by Englishman inim intrigued by the jws teachings re the 144,000 and i would much appreciate some input.. i mean, is their any real scriptural back-up to say that a set number of people will go from earth to heaven, or is this just a witness interpretation thing?.
also, how does this remnant become aware that they have a calling?
does the wtbts tend not to persecute these ones, if they hold views that would be deemed as apostate in others?.
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Hi Terraly: You made some good comments on this topic, and I thought I would respond to one point:
You said, "No disrespect meant to Amazing, but it's always been my belief that the anointed and born-agains exaggerate the whole thing."
I agree with you that the JWs (WTS) embellishes and makes anointing a mysterious experience, and they also use this simple Christian attribute to create class distinction and corporate power positions for the leaders.
I also agree with you that 'Born-Again' types, primarily the radical fundamentalists can make this a very exaggerated experience. What I should have clarified when I talked about most Christians treating anointing much more nodestly, is that these tend to be among Presbyterian, Christian Reform, Methodists, and many Baptists. But also it varies individual to individual even among fundamentalists.
You noted, "I mean, you're supposed to be one of these holy anointed, so this special feeling you get better be pretty darn special. So special they can't explain it... seems a bit suspicious eh?"
True, among some, especially the JWs and certain fundamentalists.
You said, "It's a matter of expectation largely. With something like this if you're expecting fire from on high you'll probably get yourself pretty worked up and you'll be convinced you felt something."
This is also true for many people in a veriety of matters in life. So, yes, some JWs who claim to be anointed get a 'special' feeling, though I never did. Similarly, JWs also are most convinced that 'demons' inhabit some baby blanket given to them by a non-JW relative, and feel better when they burn the blanket, with screaming demons and all.
But, I think that among the majority of Christians, they are modest and see anointing as one among many features of being Christian, and they usually remain modest about the experience, and are very capable of explaining it, because in reality is a not mysterious, but just another way in which God deals with those he adopts. - Amazing
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What's So Special About These One's?
by Englishman inim intrigued by the jws teachings re the 144,000 and i would much appreciate some input.. i mean, is their any real scriptural back-up to say that a set number of people will go from earth to heaven, or is this just a witness interpretation thing?.
also, how does this remnant become aware that they have a calling?
does the wtbts tend not to persecute these ones, if they hold views that would be deemed as apostate in others?.
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Amazing
Hey Englishman: Isn't that uncanny how I just happened to use the name of oyur best pal? Must be that Spirit-Directed thing the Governing Booty (er, I mean Body) talks about. Anyway, sometime ago, when H20 was still alive, you and I were going to email because I am of 100% British ancestry, and my family heritage is a castle in Merry Old England. I will send an email shortly under my screen name. Thanks. - Amazing
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What's So Special About These One's?
by Englishman inim intrigued by the jws teachings re the 144,000 and i would much appreciate some input.. i mean, is their any real scriptural back-up to say that a set number of people will go from earth to heaven, or is this just a witness interpretation thing?.
also, how does this remnant become aware that they have a calling?
does the wtbts tend not to persecute these ones, if they hold views that would be deemed as apostate in others?.
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Amazing
Hi Englishman: Here is a stab at some answers to your questions.
You asked, "... is their any real scriptural back-up to say that a set number of people will go from Earth to heaven, or is this just a witness interpretation thing?"
Rev. 7:4 and Rev. 14:1 are the ONLY verses in the Bible that discuss the 144,000 where a specific number is mentioned. In both cases this group is mentioned as being in heaven or with the Lamb (aka Jesus). One can conclude that this 'group' goes to heaven, but the attributes given to them are also applied to the Great Crowd. Depending on one's interpretation, the number 144,000 is either symbolic or literal. The literal is what the Watch Tower promotes, but they are one shaky ground. A symbolic number is far easier to support. Other than these two verses, the 144,000 are never discussed in the rest of the Bible, nor in secular writings by the early Christians (or at least few secular writings, but hardly known or accepted.)
You asked, "Also, how does this “remnant” become aware that they have a calling?"
Important to understand this: The JW anointing process is virtually identical to the rest of Christendom. I professed this calling for over 20 years as a JW. When one reads the Bible and puts faith in Jesus Christ as their mediator, they are adopted into God's family and called a 'son' or 'child' of God. Anointing is the 'spirit' of adoption. This 'spirit' means that your mental and emotional response to this feature of faith is positive, that is you identify with it, and recognize that it applies to you. Simple.
It can be illustrated this way: If you are on a trip with a friend who has the same first and last name as you, say, Mike Jones. Your respective fathers also have the same name, say Tom. A letter comes addressed to Mike Jones from Tom Jones (typed). You and your friend both read the letter together. But, one of you will recognize that the letter is not intended for you, and the other will easily recognize what his own father would say to him. The letter might contain things that apply to both, but it will primarily be directed at only one of you. You, say are the Mike that the letter is intended for, and you will identify with your own father, and respond that way.
This is the best illustration of the Watch Tower premise of how the Anointed know they are such. In Christendon, when you read what the father has to say in the Bible, you respond out of faith and understand that you have become anointed. But in Christendom, they do not make any big deal out of this feature as it is only one way to characterize an otherwise multi-faceted relationship.
The reason that so-called non-anointed JWs of the Other Sheep are so unclear and confused about this calling is that the Watch Tower steps into the middle of that relationship and scares the beejeebers out of them so that they are afriad to respond positively to the Christian hope. As a result, a mystery is created where none ought to exist.
You asked, "Does the WTBTS tend not to persecute these one’s, if they hold views that would be deemed as apostate in others?"
Far from it. One who professes anointing and holds so-called 'apostate' views is often treated with ever greater suspecion and just as harshly as the Other Sheep class.
You asked, "What is the point of this select group, when they receive their heavenly reward what do they actually DO all day?"
Help run the government. Anything from the heavenly mail room, to the conference center where high level executive decisions are made. Building codes, freeway construction, and of course teaching and training the newly resurrected.
you asked, "What is their “raison d’etre”, and are they, whilst alive on Earth, considered as being exceptionally possessing of God-like qualities?"
This is a common JW belief, and becausde of some misconceptions, JWs of the Other Sheep will often see 'better' qaulities in those professing anointing, but it is more like a placebo effect. They believe they are better, so they see better things in them. In truth, and even in WTS literature, anointed are technically no better than anyone else, they merely were lucky enough to win the Big Spiritual Lottery in the Sky.
Amazing
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Adam to be Resurrected - Yes?
by Focus inwill adam be resurrected?.
focus.
(anti-flipfloppery class)
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Amazing
Gawd booby-trapped Adam to die and pass along imperfection IF he transgressed. Nothing in the Bible says that Adam was even remotely aware of the actual consequences. I am sure if Gawd had warned Adam and maybe taken his in a vision (while perfect Gawd could speak directly with him) and show Adam the future IF he screws up, then Adam would have been prepared, and I am sure that being a good, sinless, and perfect man he would have made the right choice.
As it is, the TREE test was not only a childish way to deal with perfect adults, but, it was not even remotely fair or caring. It was as IF Gawd was trying to set a trap that he knew Satan and Adam and Eve would fall for.
I am not judging Gawd, but I think all the claims made about the mythological-allegorical acocunt of Adam and Eve have forced many religions, like the JWs to use layers and layers of legalese, plausibilities, and rationalizations to try and explain away what otherwise would have been a nice bedtime story for children.
Amazing