yes, again... after reading numerous posts on this site and doing some research on my own, i have a strong feeling that my whole belief will soon stand or fall with the understanding of 'this generation'.. matthew 24:3 .."tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?".
matthew 24:7 for nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.. matthew 24:34 truly i say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.. .
generation:noun: group of genetically related organisms constituting a single step in the line of descent noun: the normal time between successive generations example: "they had to wait a generation for that prejudice to fade".
Hey fairchild - welcome to the board!
You said:
Since it seems totally unlikey that Jesus could have been wrong, don't we have to conclude then that there should indeed be a greater future fulfillment?
It might be a good idea to consider the basis for your underlying assumptions. When you're trying to get to the bottom of things, sometimes you need to get to the very bottom. Start with, "What do I know for sure?"
Just my two cents.
SNG
chief rabbi leon ashkenazi said: "the difference between an atheist christian and an atheist jew is that an atheist christian does not believe that god exists, while an atheist jew believes that god does not exist.".
i'm not so sure about the jewish-christian borderline, but i love the nuance.. so which sentence suits you better?.
"i don't believe that god exists.".
Hey Green,
Thanks for taking the time to write back.
Humility is a good thing....But it does help sometimes to be reminded of our simpleness. We are nothing more than an earthworm with a brain and hands capable of fashioning tools. This is not self loathing so much as the reality of our situation.
I certainly agree that humility is a good thing. I don't really think it has anything to do with the discussion at hand, however. The question is whether the God painted by the OT is "monstrous" as the AlanF camp has claimed, or "loving" as you have claimed. The earthworm-like nature of humanity does not bear on this question.
Thanks for quoting the scriptures. I am very familiar with those scriptures - they are the exact ones I used to use while defending God door-to-door as a Witness. I have no doubt that the Bible contains some beautiful descriptions of God's love. But you'd have to admit, you really have to search to find them. And regardless of what a verse here or there might say, actions speak louder than words.
AlanF's scenario in which you meet a guy who says he's a loving father, but then admits to killing a bunch of his children, is really something to think about, because that's exactly what's going on in the Bible. We have what God says, and then we have what God does, and they are - at times - very, very different.
I can't remember if you said you used to be a Witness or not - I get the feeling that you never were. I actually had to go door to door, carrying the flag for God, in places like Seattle, where people really know their stuff. So believe me, I know where you're coming from. The only time I could really make a convincing case that God was loving was when the householder didn't know enough about the Bible to refute the handful of scripture like the ones you quoted. Because seriously, there are only a handful. In the end, I just got tired of trying to make the Bible say something it doesn't.
Anyway, I appreciate your willingness to discuss. I hope you can see where I and some of the others on this thread are coming from. Understanding others is a good thing.
SNG
chief rabbi leon ashkenazi said: "the difference between an atheist christian and an atheist jew is that an atheist christian does not believe that god exists, while an atheist jew believes that god does not exist.".
i'm not so sure about the jewish-christian borderline, but i love the nuance.. so which sentence suits you better?.
"i don't believe that god exists.".
Hey Green,
Here's how I think of it. Is a good father good when he gives little Johnny all the toys he wants and lets him do whatever he wants? But then is that same father bad because the next day he tells little Johnny, "No, son. Today I'm not buying any toys. And if you climb on the fence again you're going to get spanked."
I don't think your analogy is very accurate. An analogy that more closely represents what is in the Bible would be a father that helps his kids kill the neighboring kids, including innocent children who did nothing wrong. The father would indeed punish his own children, but a lot of times he would do so arbitrily and then feel bad about it later.
I have a hard time imagining how you can actually say that the God of the OT is loving. If a human acted like the Bible depicts him as acting, he would be called a psychopath.
Look, mankind is a hole. Through one end enters the food out the other comes what's left. Don't give me any higher than thou standards.
As for SHIT FOR BRAINS that is the best description I've seen on this board for mankind him/herself.
Why all the self-loathing? I think it's preventing you from looking at the issues clearly.
The people with whom you've had the main arguments on this thread, namely, AlanF, HS, and SixOfNine, have all been trying to say just one thing: The OT paints God as about as cruel and arbitrary a figure as we can imagine. There are logical implications to this, but you haven't been able to see them because you can't even allow yourself to come to grips with that simple reality.
Just my two cents.
SNG
went to the watchtower observer site and got this message:.
the server is currently disabled.. i thought kent said that we had until the end of the month before the site was removed?.
now how are we going to save the files we wanted to save?.
Don't worry...countermeasures are under way...
SNG
chief rabbi leon ashkenazi said: "the difference between an atheist christian and an atheist jew is that an atheist christian does not believe that god exists, while an atheist jew believes that god does not exist.".
i'm not so sure about the jewish-christian borderline, but i love the nuance.. so which sentence suits you better?.
"i don't believe that god exists.".
Brenda,
To deny existence is to accept that a thing may have existed.
I don't think that's true. There may be some cases where it is, but it is certainly not a general principle. For example, say someone posits the existence of gremlins who hide my car keys every night. You'd probably feel justified in balking at that proposition without giving it much thought. You deny my gremlins exist. Such denial does not indicate anything more than your disbelief that they exist.
SNG
chief rabbi leon ashkenazi said: "the difference between an atheist christian and an atheist jew is that an atheist christian does not believe that god exists, while an atheist jew believes that god does not exist.".
i'm not so sure about the jewish-christian borderline, but i love the nuance.. so which sentence suits you better?.
"i don't believe that god exists.".
eh....heh heh heh...
chief rabbi leon ashkenazi said: "the difference between an atheist christian and an atheist jew is that an atheist christian does not believe that god exists, while an atheist jew believes that god does not exist.".
i'm not so sure about the jewish-christian borderline, but i love the nuance.. so which sentence suits you better?.
"i don't believe that god exists.".
AlanF, I think that is probably the most compelling historical comparison I have ever seen. Can you give me the source for the material at hand?
SNG
chief rabbi leon ashkenazi said: "the difference between an atheist christian and an atheist jew is that an atheist christian does not believe that god exists, while an atheist jew believes that god does not exist.".
i'm not so sure about the jewish-christian borderline, but i love the nuance.. so which sentence suits you better?.
"i don't believe that god exists.".
Hey HS,
:: :: On the other hand, I believe that the Christian conception of God does not exist, because if he did, he would collapse under the weight of his own illogicity.
...
:: No, merely that it has not in two thousand years collapsed under the weight of its 'illogicity' as you suggest, and does not look like it is about to happen either. A lack of logic has seldom caused the collapse of any belief system.
I didn't say the belief system would collapse. As you observe, people can believe illogical things all they want. I just said that if a God existed in the Christian conception, that God himself would collapse.
Kind of like in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, where God gets trapped in a paradox that proves he doesn't exist. His final words are, "Oh, dear, I hadn't thought of that." Then he disappears in a poof of logic.
SNG
chief rabbi leon ashkenazi said: "the difference between an atheist christian and an atheist jew is that an atheist christian does not believe that god exists, while an atheist jew believes that god does not exist.".
i'm not so sure about the jewish-christian borderline, but i love the nuance.. so which sentence suits you better?.
"i don't believe that god exists.".
Hello hillary_step,
:: :: On the other hand, I believe that the Christian conception of God does not exist, because if he did, he would collapse under the weight of his own illogicity.
:: If a year was a reason, there would be two thousand reasons why your statement is incorrect.
LOL...So you're saying that the past 2000 years have borne silent testimony to how logical the Christian God's existence is?
SNG
chief rabbi leon ashkenazi said: "the difference between an atheist christian and an atheist jew is that an atheist christian does not believe that god exists, while an atheist jew believes that god does not exist.".
i'm not so sure about the jewish-christian borderline, but i love the nuance.. so which sentence suits you better?.
"i don't believe that god exists.".
Narkissos,
Great quote. It concisely sums up what otherwise takes several paragraphs to explain to the non-initiated.
As for myself, I do not believe that God exists.
On the other hand, I believe that the Christian conception of God does not exist, because if he did, he would collapse under the weight of his own illogicity.
SNG
