Posts by toreador

78

Research on the validity of 1914

by Bluegrass Tom in

here are a few facts that i have recently discovered by doing some research.. the watchtower society uses the date of 539 b.c.e as the date that cyrus took over babylon.

they use the term "absolute date" to define this as an unquestionable point in time.

to do this they had to ignore 586 b.c.e which is the real date for the destruction of jerusalem.. therefore, if jerusalem never lay desolate for 70 years, when does this desolation and fulfillment of this prophecy take place?

toreador

Hello,

You wrote,

I don't think that the Holy Spirit has helped all of the people who now claim to have received such help. Neither do I believe those who have been helped to understand some things correctly by the Holy Spirit have been helped by the Holy Spirit to understand all of the things they now understand.
In other words, some people arrived at all of their beliefs without any help from God. And some people arrived at only some of their beliefs with His help. That leaves room for an an awful lot of false doctrine.

What you are saying then is there is absolutely no way to tell what is false and what is true. I agree with you.

But I would say what good is the holy spirit as sometimes its there and sometimes it isnt, no way of telling. It could be just a figment of an active imagination

Toreador

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

toreador

Toreador,
You asked? Do you think the holy spirit has helped you to figure out the 400 thing you have going on here.

Christian replied
Yes, but no more than God helps others who ask Him for His help in understanding things.

I have a hard time observing the reality of the holy spirit guiding people to understanding. Too much false doctrine and too many religions, each one claiming spirit direction and understanding.

Toreador

78

Research on the validity of 1914

by Bluegrass Tom in

here are a few facts that i have recently discovered by doing some research.. the watchtower society uses the date of 539 b.c.e as the date that cyrus took over babylon.

they use the term "absolute date" to define this as an unquestionable point in time.

to do this they had to ignore 586 b.c.e which is the real date for the destruction of jerusalem.. therefore, if jerusalem never lay desolate for 70 years, when does this desolation and fulfillment of this prophecy take place?

toreador

Why if 607 is SO important for our day to know did not Jehovah have 607 carefully put in the bible. Why do we have to use astonomy and secular evidence to arrive a biblical prophetical date? Huh?

I want to know. Tell me Scholar.

Toreador

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

toreador

Achristian,

Do you think the holy spirit has helped you to figure out the 400 thing you have going on here. If not why do you suppose you are the first to stumble onto it?

Tor

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

toreador

Achristian,

Your comments in black, mine are in red. God's message to all of us today is a very simple one. Christ died for us. The rest in window dressing.

Then why the huge bible full of contradiction, myths, parables, allegories, killing, maiming, killing babies, women, etc.

Those who believe that Christ died in our place and then ask God to forgive their sins and begin doing their best to live as a follower of Christ will be given eternal life by God. Those who don't risk eternal condemnation. That is not to say that all who don't will be eternally condemned. Billions of people have lived their entire lives without hearing the Gospel message. Boy, these people get off easy they dont even have to believe.

Many who have heard the Gospel and have not responded to it may have failed to do so for a very good reason, a reason which God may fully understand on Judgment Day.

These people get off easy too eh?

Maybe you think that "a God of order" who is "a loving and caring God" would have fully controlled all of mankind's affairs from the very beginning, preventing all pain, suffering, death and injustice. It sure would prove he is a loving God dont ya think? Did he give pain, suffering, death and injustice to the angels he created in his image as well? That way they could see what kind of a loving God he is too. Or maybe you think that "a God of order" who is "a loving and caring God" would have made sure that every human that has ever lived was from birth given a complete, very easy to understand, instruction book from God, telling them exactly what God demanded from them in order to be given eternal life. Obviously God has not done those things.

And why not? Doesnt he love us? If I wanted my kids to have a good life and I know what was best I sure would have given them an easy to understand instruction book. Am I better than GOd? Thanks, Toreador

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

toreador

Hello AChristian, Toreador, :You asked: Why would God require us to sift through mountains of secular data to extrapolate when such and such happened? :God doesn't require us to do anything of the sort. It is not necessary for us to understand exactly how many years ago various events happened, including Adam's creation and Christ's birth. History buffs find such information interesting. That's all. I see your point somwhat. I see that you find history interesting and entertaining. Myself I couldn't stand history in school. It was my worst subject. For those of us, like myself, who finds history boring we wouldn't find as much to put faith in if we didnt do all that extra digging. :If God "required " us to understand exactly when various events happened in order for us to gain eternal life I'm sure He would have made sure the Bible alone contained that information. The Bible alone contains all the information we need to know in order to find salvation. This is what I still find puzzling. I have looked into the bible a fair amount, read a bit on talk origins.com, read some on the skeptics annotated bible and instead have found the bible to come up wanting as far satisfying my hope in salvation of any kind. This is not what I wanted to come up with either. Its not that I dont want to believe in God for I do. :However, for the reasons I have already discussed, I believe it is quite faith strengthening to discover that Jesus Christ was born in the year 4000, counting the passage of years beginning with the year of Adam's creation. However, such an understanding is certainly not in any way necessary for us to put our faith in the God of the Bible. Billions of Christians have done so for nearly 2,000 years without having such an understanding. Toreador wrote: If you consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God, should we need other material to figure out God's dates? After All they ARE God's dates. :Why shouldn't we? I don't know about you, but I need a lot of secularly trained expert help just to read God's word.Why? Because I don't read Hebrew or Greek. That means I need someone else to tell me what each and every word in the Bible means. That is what I am talking about. We need to depend on someone 'else' to tell us and that someone 'else' always seems to have a preconcieved/biased view so puts his spin on it. It therefore makes it impossible to understand what was originally intended. : And I have to trust that these secularly trained biblical language translation "experts" know what they are doing. More often than not, they 'dont' know what they are doing. : I see no difference between that and my trusting a secularly trained biblical dating translation expert to tell me, in modern terms, what "the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar" means. The whole problem is that these interpretaions can be wrong for our whole lifetime and many more years before realizing these professional interpreters realize they were wrong. People can spend their whole lives believing in a fantasy. Look at C. T. Russel as an example of just one of many who was big into date setting and date interpretation. His clap trap (new word for me) , is still destroying peoples lives to this day. I believed it, so did many others and many still do. If God 'really' wanted us 'all' to gain salvation, he has, IMO, a very messy way of getting his message across. The record does not paint a very favorable picture of a God of order. Don't get me wrong, I want to live on as much as the next guy, but after much reading and contemplation the odds of there being a loving and caring God seems less and less of a real probability to me. I appreciated your response to me, Thanks, Toreador

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

toreador

You have a great day to Sabrina!

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

toreador

Yes, that I know. But Why would God require us to sift through mountains of secular data to extrapolate when such and such happened. If you consider the bible to be the inspired word of God, should we need other material to figure out God's dates? After All they ARE God's dates.

I have yet to get a reasonable answer to that question from anyone I have asked.

Thanks,

Toreador

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

toreador

Yes but can you date Adam and Jesus from just the bible?

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

toreador

Achristian,

Following a fairly traditional understanding of Bible chronology (the same basic study published by Archbishop James Ussher nearly 400 years ago), JWs' date God's creation of Adam to 4026 BC. However, JWs begin their count back in time 20-21 years too early. For they do so beginning with a 607 BC date for Babylon's destruction of Jerusalem. But we now know the JW date for Jerusalem's destruction by Babylon is 20 years too early. We now know that Jerusalem fell in 587/6BC, not in 607 BC. So if we simply correct JW Bible chronology, using the correct date for Jerusalem's destruction, we arrive at the year 4006/4005 BC for Adam's creation. JWs also assign a 2 BC date to the birth of Christ. However, nearly all New Testament historians tell us that Christ was born in about the year 5 BC, some three years earlier than JWs say. With these things in mind, once we have corrected the JWs' Bible chronology in these two areas, it certainly appears that Jesus Christ was born into this world exactly 4,000 years after God's creation of Adam.

"If" from the bible it could be proven that Adam was born in 4000 BC and Christ in the year Zero then you might have something. Given the fact you have to use secular numbers along with biblical data and the two dont seem to mix well, I would not put much credence to it. Rounding the numbers of doesnt help either.

It would be rather illogical for God to actutally have intended for the the numeral 400 to mean something that he would be off a few years here and there and then like I said, use secular and biblical dating mixed in as well. Esp when he would expect us think the numbers mean something and then for him to be off.

Just curious, do you think Jesus will not return again for another 2000 years since he waited 4000 years from Adam to appear the first time and we are 2000 years appx forward from there so we could in your logic maybe have to wait another 2000 to keep the numbers at 4000?

Toreador