OrphanCrow

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Posts by OrphanCrow

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  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

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  OrphanCrow

  Kaik, a good source for the Charles Russell's dual covenant and his link to Zionism, and Rutherford's subsequent shift to a far different doctrine with the JW religion, can be found here:

  http://www.agsconsulting.com/articles/zionists.htm
  
• 
  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

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  OrphanCrow

  Finkelstein: I'm getting the impression that Rutherford cranked up a antisemitic stance during the war as a means to better position and appeal to Hitler's own antisemitic ideologies. Went with the wave as it were preconceived that in doing so in toward making the JWS look better or supportive to the political ideology of the time in Europe, propagated by Hitler's Nazism.

  Of course. That is why I have made the assertion earlier that the WTS was far from "politically neutral". Their political positioning was reflected in their doctrinal positions.

  What Rutherford's shift in doctrine reflected was actually a political shift - one that moved away from the Bible Students' left-wing political stance and placed the WT corporation solidly in the camp of right wing politics.

  In the political climate of the time, left wing politics was associated with the Bolshevism that was in control of Russia - the country that was feared to become what it promised to do - rule the world and make the entire world communist. The Bolsheviks were mostly Jews. And to the right of that, on the other end of the political spectrum, right wing politics manifested itself in Fascism, the Nazis being its own particular brand of far right wing politics.

  The religious doctrines were political statements.
• 
  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

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  OrphanCrow

  Finkelstein: When one reads one of Rutherford's books he wrote on the subject in 1925, he was certainly taking the position as a pro Zionist.
  Kaik: Some of the ideas in that book are truly ridiculous as Rutherford lacked any understanding of Jewish faith and history. For example he said that Jews must accept NT and Messiah insisting that Satan had blind them etc.

  I think it may be more helpful to use the term dual covenant theology instead of Zionism when discussing the difference between Russell's Zionist stance and Rutherford's movement towards a California based Jerusalem.

  Russell's doctrine put forth the view that Jews had a separate, special covenant with 'God', and that the Christians had their own, separate covenant. Hence, Russell's doctrine was a dual covenant understanding that did not require the conversion of Jews to Christianity, or their acceptance of the Messiah.

  And that is where Rutherford's doctrine differed sharply - his was a replacement doctrine that required the Jews to accept the NT and the Messiah. It would take a few more years before Rutherford dropped the "return to Palestine" and replaced that holy place with his mansion, but he had already veered sharply away from Russell's dual covenant doctrine by his statements requiring the Jews to "accept the Messiah". in 1925.

  Rutherford replaced the Jews in the covenant doctrine with the Jws. Replacement doctrine.

  
  

  
  
• 
  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

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  OrphanCrow

  Finkelstein:

  Sounds bit like a white Aryan racist, maybe propping up his own personal identity as a white pure Christian ?

  
  

  If anyone else has some writings from Rutherford particularly focused on his perceptions of the Jews please forward it. Would be interesting.

  This is a statement that Rutherford made during one of his talks at the same Children of The King convention in 1941:

  The attack we have got to make is just what Jesus did. You know that when Jesus was on earth the religionists wore long robes. They didn't have much of lace curtains at that time; they wore phylacteries, greased their head with goat grease, and smelled a good deal like billies. And, no doubt, that is where Jesus got the thought that it was a 'goat' class. He meant the Jews of that class of billy-goats with long whiskers, and long faces that smelled to the top of the mountain.
• 
  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

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  OrphanCrow

  I got that OrpahnCrow but you have to agree that the JWS under Rutherford weren't exactly showing signs of antisemitism, particularity when taking on the name of the Jewish god and refusing the cross, not calling their meeting places churches, being openly aggressive toward the Catholic church and so on.

  You have valid points but it is the attitude of the JWs, fostered by a leadership that made anti-semitic statements in their literature and sermons, that reveals their anti-semitic position. There are places online that discuss the anti-Jew statements of Rutherford in public, and there are places in the WT literature where it is obvious.
  

  Here is an example of the attitude of the American JWs in 1941. From the convention report of The Children of The King convention held in St. Louis.

  The author is describing the children who were seated on the grass of the arena for Rutherford's final address to them and after describing how the children all filed up on stage to receive a book from the man himself, it says this:

  But now the man has gone, and you still look on - and are surprised to note that the 15,000 children are on the blond side - brown hair, yellow hair, light brown heads - only a few really black ones, and you don't quite understand why this is so, but it is. And you come away feeling refreshed as though you had seen something exceedingly rare in this evil day - something clean and honest and pure; something unforgettable - a promise of that sweetness and harmony which will be in God's kingdom.

  Rutherford made many statements vocalizing his dislike of the Jews.
• 
  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

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  OrphanCrow

  FusionThesim: I think anti-Watchtower bias and bitterness is showing through on some of these comments.

  I disagree.

  What I have said and presented is done with as least bias as possible. The bulk of my research is from scholarly accounts written by respected historians. What I am trying to do is add context and knowledge to the existing accounts that are used to document the WTS and the Jw involvement in a very important time in political world history.

  I would love to report that the WTS' accounts are complete, true and honest. Unfortunately, I can't. It would be practising dishonest research practises and I am unable to adopt the stance of the uninformed and disinformed.

  Yes, there were many heroes of all different kinds that had a role to play in the horrors of WW2. Not all of the stories are told - or understood.

  Do we blame the Jewish victims in the Holocaust for practicing their faith or for speaking out against Hitler?
  Most people usually consider them to be brave heroes.

  Of course we don't blame the victims.

  But, it is helpful to know what it is that happened so that religion isn't used as a scapegoat for political reasons. Sticking to the 'religious persecution' model is a method that relies on the emotional response of people - religious thinking obscures rationals facts.

  Hitler's hatred of the Jews has commonly been understood and presented as a religious persecution. However, Hitler's hatred towards the Jews was a political hatred. The Jews in Germany controlled the leftwing party - the Bolsheviks. In 1925, when Mein Kampf was published, Hitler viewed the Bolsheviks as the largest threat to German Nationalism and his greatest political enemy. The Jews weren't his 'religious enemy' - the Jews were Hitler's political enemy.

  Hitler believed that if the Bolsheviks/Jews, who has so recently took power in Russia following the bloodbath of the 1917 Revolution, gained power in Germany, that his beloved Germany would be eternally lost and ruined. Hitler was anti-communist, anti-Bolshevik, anti-Jew. Religion was an after effect, and consequently an identifying feature, of political positioning.
• 
  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

  1. 
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  OrphanCrow

  Finklestein: When this was done and it was found out that the JWS were Zionist supporters

  I have to disagree with your statement. The JWs were not Zionists.

  That is one of the major points that people forget - the JWs were formed as the result of a major flip in WT doctrine - possibly one of the most major in the history of the Watchtower Society. Under Russell, and leading up to 1925, the Bible Students were Zionists. Russell campaigned heavily for the return of the Jews to Palestine.

  It was the shift to Rutherford's replacement theology that was responsible for the huge falling away that occurred in America the late 20s, and was also played out in Germany.

  The JWs were not Zionists - their Palestine was out in California. Beth Sarim

  The JWs in the camps and those working for the Nazis', shared the anti-semitic views of the Nazis.

  That is why there are conflicting reports on the beliefs and practises of the JWs during WW2 and is the cause for confusion on some points. The split in the WT religion (over 75% of the Bible Students refused to follow Joe post-1925) and the emergence Joe's new religion was too recent for the differences to be readily apparent to the historians and researchers interested in the WTS history of WW2.

  It is the rejection of Zionist theology that led to Rudolph Hess to say that the JW women who worked for him and his wife viewed the Jews as sinners and as deserving of the treatment as they were getting.

  The Bible Students - that large percentage of WT followers that had remained true to Russell teachings and refused to convert to the Rutherford notion of how power was going to happen in Watchtower land - those are the ones who held fast to the Zionist view during WW2.
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  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

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  OrphanCrow

  Kaik, I always enjoy your contributions to discussions about WW2 and Germany. I envy your ability to access primary documentation and your proximity to research material. What you share and the information you add often fills in gaps in my own research. Thank you.

  TheOldHippie: In stead of reading the summaries some here give - good, but still nothing but summaries - why don't you read Garbe? It's all there. Thick as a brick, but a truly great history of JWs and WWII. The pre-Hitler persecution, early Hitler acts, Rutherford's attempts at coming to terms, Balzereit, conventions, campaigns, internal strife within the camps, factions among the JWs - it's all there. So summaries here are nothing "new", nothing that is "hidden from the JWs", "shocking news" or anything like that. Read Garbe - or a couple of the other good German historians for that matter. Good books. And nothing neither a JW or an ex-JW should be afraid of. Just plain good old-fashioned research with all the pro's and con's, all the successes and setbacks.

  Yes, OldHippie, Detlef Garbe is an excellent resource. His book is one, among many others, that has given us much information about the Watchtower activities during the war years. However, in order to get a better sense of what was happening at that time, and how external influences shaped the WT history, there is much to be learned by looking farther afield in historical accounts.

  I apologize as you seem to not like summaries, but what follows is a very brief summary of research that goes well beyond WTS literature and Garbe’s historical documentation or authors who have focused on the WTS and WW2. I can provide references for what I am about to say, but for now, I will try to keep this brief. I am leaving lots of detail out.

  It is easy to focus on Rutherford and Hitler, but it was Heinrich Himmler, the leader of the SS, who had the most influence on the JWs during WW2.

  And it was Heinrich Himmler’s doctor who would also prove to play a pivotal role in the history of the JWs. Garbe, and WT publications, mention Felix Kersten as an influential figure and there are several outside sources that speak of Kersten’s activities during the war, including several editions of the diary that he wrote while attending to Himmler’s health. There is far more to Dr. Kersten than what the WT or Garbe mention. I have read several books about Kersten in addition to one of his diaries. One author called him "The Devil's Doctor".

  Among the many things that I discovered about this famed WT legend, Felix Kersten, is that he practiced a special technique on Himmler that ingratiated him to the leader of the SS. Kersten wasn’t a ‘doctor’ that could lay claim to the title legitimately – he was a masseuse. What made him special to Himmler is that Kersten was able to relieve the intense abdominal pain that Himmler suffered frequently. And how Kersten did it was with “deep massage” – a technique that was known in the chiropractic field of the age, as “bloodless surgery”.

  And that piece of information points to some things that I find interesting about the JWs and WW2 – how the WTS and the JWs fit, and don’t fit, within the historical narrative of blood medicine.

  Many things occurred during World War 2 that would have an impact on the world – technology surges in times of conflict and one area that surged, and never looked back, was blood medicine technology. The group that would feel the impact of those medical advances in a huge negative way was the JWs – the doctrine banning blood transfusions, was introduced right after the end of WW2.

  At the very same time that the world was embracing and making large medical gains in blood medicine, the JWs were denied the right to access blood transfusions. It was at the very same time that Eisenhower was releasing the work camp prisoners at the end of the war, that Knorr and Franz were putting the finishing touches on the July, 1945 Watchtower that would set the stage for a huge leap in WT doctrine. The article published in that magazine led to the WTS saying that blood transfusions were no longer permitted, and that ‘Jehovah God’ said so in the Bible.

  Advances in blood technology occurred rather rapidly during WW2. Even though blood transfusions had been in medical use for some time, with doctors and patients encountering and overcoming many problems along the way, several things happened during the years leading up to and during WW2 that would have lasting benefits in blood medicine. Firstly, a giant step happened when a Canadian doctor devised a way to transport blood to the wounded during the Spanish Civil War (1936?). And Dr. Cohn, an American doctor, discovered how to fractionate blood. Blood banking became possible, and blood donors were able to donate other than “on the hoof” – which was arm to arm transmission between soldiers and medics at the front.

  The one country, though, that lagged way behind in the optimal use of blood technology was Nazi Germany. While the rest of the world was expending energy into utilizing blood as a life saving resource, the Germans were reluctant and superstitious in their use of blood. (a good book to read on blood medicine history is Douglas Starr’s Blood: An Epic History of Medicine and Commerce)

  The German doctors used small amounts of blood when resorting to blood transfusions (usually not enough), the medical treatment at the front still relied mostly on the system of “on the hoof” transfusions, and the German’s medical research was more concerned in pursuing ways of stopping the bleeding from happening than discovering how to advance blood transfusion technology. For instance, Nazi doctors tested out anti-clotting formulas on prisoners and did very little to advance the use of blood transfusions. Underlying the Nazis’ focus on blood management and reducing blood transfusions, was their notion of “pure race” and avoiding contaminating their Aryan blood with the blood of those who were “impure”.

  By the end of WW2, the WTS had manipulated Biblical interpretation in order to come up with a blood doctrine that fit perfectly into the Nazis’ scientific and ideological aims. And then gave the JWs the ultimate loyalty test – to obey or face eternal death. And just like that, those volunteer prisoners became volunteer medical subjects.

  The face of bloodless surgery has changed since the days of it being practised as a deep massage technique by Felix Kersten, but the reasons for it being what it is today, truly is because of what the JWs have contributed to it since the end of WW2 – their lives.

  The WTS is blood guilty. And not just for those who died during the war in concentration camps, but also for those who have died in the past 70 years by following the WTS’ directive to refuse blood transfusions. The WTS has deceived the world with the blood doctrine because the roots of the blood transfusion ban aren’t in the Bible – the roots can be found in Nazi Germany during WW2.
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  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

  1. 
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  OrphanCrow

  Giordani: An ironic side note to this despicable situation is that the actual Commanding General of the entire European theater of war............ Dwight Eisenhower (later president of the US) demanded that his troops liberate the concentration camps ASAP.
  The irony is that Eisenhower had been raised as a JW or what passed as a JW (which was a WT affiliated Bible Student), his mother’s living room served as the local Kingdom Hall. He, his father and all of his brothers left the religion and Eisenhower went on to become one of the 21st Centuries most important and successful Military and political figures we have had.http://www.adherents.com/people/pe/Dwight_Eisenhower.html
  Rutherford or the apostate Eisenhower? Who was mentally diseased?

  Ah yes...Eisenhower. The WTS sure tried to get mileage out of that man. I think of "Ike" as the WTS' Michael Jackson of the 50s - celebrity status with a JW connection.

  The WTS did not view Ike as an apostate - not by any stretch of the imagination - apostates don't get favourable articles written about them in WT literature.

  The WTS printed two articles about Dwight Eisenhower - both favorable. I say they are favorable articles, contrary to what some who claim that they were 'neutral' articles, simply because the WTS didn't criticize him and there were favorable comments scattered through each article. When the WTS wants to be unfavorable, the reader is left in no doubt. There is no such concept as 'neutral' when discussing politics - by default, the neutral position is always on the side of the power position.

  The first article was printed in the December 22, 1952 Awake magazine and was titled President by a Landslide - Report of the United States' Presidential Campaign.

  The second article was printed in the January 8, 1957 Awake magazine, titled America Still Likes Ike.

  I find both articles to be evidence of another one of those amusingly ironic things about the WTS - on one hand they shout from the rooftops that they are "politically neutral!!" and on the other hand, they are constantly making political statements and publishing political news stories.

  When a person compares the early Golden Age articles to the articles later, after the major schism that saw the upturning of the Zionist theology and the adoption of the replacement theology, the political shift is glaringly obvious. The Golden Age magazines prior to 1925 were overtly socialist in nature - left wing politics were compatible with the Zionist stance that was heavily represented in much of the magazine. The Golden Age editors also included many articles that were pro-labour and featured articles on prominent Democrats.

  After 1925, the switch to right wing politics was evident in the choice of articles (and in Rutherford's 'bedfellows' that financed Beth Sarim, et al), and that stance continued for years and was made even more evident in the articles published about the Republican president, Dwight Eisenhower.

  Politically neutral? I think not.

  *truthseeker and DrivingForce, thanks...and you are welcome. :)
• 
  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

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  OrphanCrow

  truthseeker: Fascinating stuff Orphan Crow! Tell me more. For some reason I couldn't make the link you provided work.

  Thanks. This "stuff" fascinates me as well.

  Sorry about that link. Too late to go fix it.

  Try this one.

  http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/25417/Castle-Estates-Berry-Picking-Personal-Servants-Position?page=1#.VV06TLlViko