i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
Green,
But if we believe the Christ to be the Son of God, his first born creation but not a part of a Trinity Godhead, then to me it seems reasonable to conclude that Michael may just be the Christ prior to his coming to earth as a man.
When was Jesus/Michael as you have it, become a first born creation?
saw the film lutero (luther in english).
saw it while out of the country.
not sure if it played in the usa.
I know Deputy Dog has seen it he told me he liked it, I think its out on dvd now, I just might pick it up.
i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
I also wonder what happened to Michael when he was crucified and died.
Yeah funny no answer, as I said, in heaven Mikey either commits suicide or God kills him.
Because the Jw cannot have Jesus with a dual nature.
edited to add: Ross,I was wondering when you'd show up.
i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
Hey Ross, DDog
Yeah Im still wondering what happened to Michael while Jesus was a un-born fetus.
i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
Sabrina,
Theres tons of literature on how the Jews viewed angels. You'll be surprised. Its worth a look anyway, then put into perspective Pauls words in Hebrews 1. Just put jews/angels in google.
i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
My point? The word translated as worship can also mean homage, or to bow down, just as the New Jerusalem Bible uses it and therefore I do not believe in any way whatsoever that the Apostle Paul was saying the angels worshipped Jesus in the same way they worship God but rather they paid homage to Jesus.
Exoudus 34:14 NWT " for you must not prostrate yourself to another god, Jehovah whose name is jealous, he is a jealous God.
"Reasoning from the scriptures" page 215, 2nd paragraph:
The Greek word rendered "worship" is pro-sky-ne'o, which A greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature says was also "used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment."
By the NWT you cannot prostrate yourself before Jesus or any other little "g" god.
Btw what is strongs # for "prostrate" ?
See also John 5:18
i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
To worship Jesus as we woship God would go contrary to what Jesus taught his disciples and to what the entire OT teaches.
Rev. 5:12 the Lamb that is in the midst of the throne gets whorship and a whole lot more.
i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
Ellderwho,You still do not answer the question what happened to Michael in heaven?
Or better yet what came down from heaven?
Michael comes and goes from heaven at God's direction, he might have been there with Mary and Joseph at the birth for all we know, but if It was Michael being born on earth then, wouldn't the angel that visited Mary before conception(?) tell Mary to call him Michael (archangel[ with us])instead of Emmanuel?(God with us)
You misunderstand me.
I do not hold that Michael and Jesus are the same personage.
What Im trying to do is to get Sabrina to think.
With this in mind, through out the scriptual approach. Lets break it down into terms that allows her to think about how the mechanics of her argument works or does not.
This takes her down a road less traveled by the witness. She is not familiar with looking at her position from other angels.
She has yet to tackle the thought of Michael "willing" himself out of existance (wt position) which is either suicide on Michaels part or murder on Gods part. you pick.
Further who is it that rose from the dead, Michael or Jesus?
And what is that entities description, man or angel?
i just discovered something i have not seen anywhere before.
i was looking at my old "all scripture inspired" book, and i say old because it was the first edition from 1963 and i had used it for years.
according to the wt cd there were revisions in 1983 and 1990. i came across this little goodie under the book of daniel.
Stecka,
First, please use paragraph breaks in your post, its a lot easier to read.
I continue each day to proove to myself that what the watchtower prints is the truth. of course there is the weed amongst the wheat class as jesus fortold. thus it takes searching and digging to really find the truth.
This is a contradictory statement. Because the WT. in many if not all cases proves that what is truth yesterday might not be truth tomorrow. They have perpetrated this since its inception.
And why if the WT has the truth would there be a need to search or dig?
i just discovered something i have not seen anywhere before.
i was looking at my old "all scripture inspired" book, and i say old because it was the first edition from 1963 and i had used it for years.
according to the wt cd there were revisions in 1983 and 1990. i came across this little goodie under the book of daniel.
. the mere fact that you have to try so hard to proove it to yourself that it is not the truth is because in your heart and mind you have no doubt that it is. what a contant struggle you must have gill. sounds like the apostle Paul when he said in Romans 7:22, 23; "I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, but I behold in my members another Law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sins law that is in my members.
Stecka,
Your analogy is laughable! Paul is telling us what the state of man is! You cant change this, EVER!
This is a major problem for the Witness. You will never know when your done working for your salvation. Carry this thought, to the end.
Even in your "paradise" the day after Armageddon you will have death. You could "slip-up" and be zapped to death, and sinners that are ressurected into your "paradise" will be killed or zapped after non-compliance. (this will be more deaths then Armageddon will have)
Then after the 1,000 years, its still not the end for deaths reign, you better be on your best, best, best behavior, because Satan comes back and seduces more witnesses to "slip-up" and zapped and killed.
So you have a lot work ahead of you, not only making a paradise for yourself and all the sinners from world history past, you will still be at risk, in the paradise you help build.
SAD!
so gill you realydelight in doing gods will towards your mother but fight to do sins law according to your flesh in order to show to yourself that the truth is a lie.You need a Bible study.
