Hell - is it a biblical teaching after all?

by Hellrider 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider


    I`m rereading the NT now, for the first time in years. And yeah yeah, I know the JW-view and the politically correct view (which, oddly, are in agreement, for once) that there is no such thing as hell, you know, the fiery place somewhere deep down, where Satan and the demons torture the souls of the wicked. I find the gospels intriguing, because here, Jesus himself is talking about Hell quite a lot:

    Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that anyone who is angry with a brother will be subjected to judgment. And whoever insults a brother will be brought before the council, and whoever says ‘Fool’ will be sent to fiery hell.

    Matthew 5:30 If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into hell.

    Matthew: 23:31 By saying this you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 23:32 Fill up then the measure of your ancestors! 23:33 You snakes, you offspring of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

    ...and that`s just in the first Gospel, there are countless more.

    Ok, so the JW-explanation, which is pretty much the same as the footnote in Matthew:

    The word translated hell is “Gehenna” ( gevenna , geenna ), a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew words ge hinnom (“Valley of Hinnom”). This was the valley along the south side of Jerusalem. In OT times it was used for human sacrifices to the pagan god Molech (cf. Jer 7:31; 19:5-6; 32:35), and it came to be used as a place where human excrement and rubbish were disposed of and burned. In the intertestamental period, it came to be used symbolically as the place of divine punishment (cf. 1 En. 27:2, 90:26; 4 Ezra 7:36).

    Also, the notion of Hell is believed, by JWs, to be related with the greek teaching of Hades, the place for the dead. However, I don`t think that`s the case. Hades is something different, and clearly signifies simply death, in the NT:

    Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

    This means simply "death will not overpower it", right? Nothing about Hell. And then, another place, Jesus mentions "the fiery furnace", which probably is a referance to Daniel, so the "fiery place" is NOT just Gehenna! I also like the part in :

    Matthew 25:45 Then he will answer them,‘I tell you the truth,just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.’ 25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    Hmm....maybe the catholics aren`t that mistaken after all? What do you all think? I`m very interested in opinions on this, I also have a lot of questions about the teaching of the "soul", but I can come back to that later.

    Edited to add: Oh, I forgot: What about the passages that speak of "the place where there will be gnashing of teeth"? The passages indicate that there IS some sort of "existence" in that place, don`t they? And in death, there is no existence... Has this issue been discussed before, by the way? If so, could someone point me to a thread?

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    If you believe in a God of Love then there is no hell. If you believe in a God of HATE and vindictiveness then yess there could be a hell

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    The Bible was written by a whole bunch of different people from different times. Some of them believed in hell and some didn't. Some of them believed in an immortal soul, and some didn't. That's why we have such contradictions in the Bible. I don't think either side could be conclusively proven, however, church tradition sides with hell, and church tradition is probably of equal value to Bible text.

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Hey Exjw,
    Assertion and opinion do not matter, what matters is this: "What do the scriptures teach"?
    >If you believe in a God of Love then there is no hell. If you believe in a God of HATE and vindictiveness then yes there could be a hell
    If we are ignoring scripture and talking opinion perhaps you can answer this? Tell me, how is complete destruction merciful and separation from God not merciful?
    Rex

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    >The Bible was written by a whole bunch of different people from different times. Some of them believed in hell and some didn't. Some of them believed in an immortal soul, and some didn't. That's why we have such contradictions in the Bible. I don't think either side could be conclusively proven, however, church tradition sides with hell, and church tradition is probably of equal value to Bible text.

    Runningboy, you are just about clueless when it comes to Biblical teachings. You have offered no facts here, only opinion.
    Rex

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    On Gehenna specifically, see http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/71230/1.ashx

    More generally, 1st-century Judaism was divided on this issue as even the NT implies.

    Apocalypticism (Daniel, 1 Enoch etc.) had popularised a large and complex (and not always consistent) set of beliefs on the afterlife, including soul survival, reward / punishment in an "intermediate state" (e.g. the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16), resurrection and final reward / punishment. Such doctrines, from both Persian and Greek origin, were widely accepted by the Pharisees (as Josephus shows) and the Essenes (as the Qumran scrolls attest).

    Those "new doctrines," including resurrection, were rejected altogether by the Sadducees whose viewpoint is fairly reflected in Qoheleth (Ecclesiastes).

    Ironically, what the WT presents as "Bible doctrine" is actually an impossible mix of both stances: rejecting soul survival with the Sadducees and accepting resurrection with the Pharisees. It is actually quite obvious, as you gathered, that the Synoptic Gospels at least side with the Pharisees on the issue of the afterlife and imply some kind of soul survival and reward/punishment in the afterlife, both as an intermediate and final state (before and after the general resurrection).

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Well, Shining One...if hell is a "fiery furnace where the teeth are gnashing" - for all eternity, I wouldn`t exactly call that more merciful than utter destruction...

    If you believe in a God of Love then there is no hell. If you believe in a God of HATE and vindictiveness then yess there could be a hell

    I hear you, but as Shining One said...what about the scriptures? And really, imagine the most wicked person in the world: Like a pedophile children-molestor and child-murderer! Shouldn`t a person like that be punished! After all, death (in the meaning of "non-existence") is not really a punishment, when you`re dead, you`re dead, and can`t feel anything. But as for "the wicked" (whatever that is), Jesus clearly talks about punishment, in "the fiery place". And punishment doesn`t have to be an expression of "vindictiveness" on the part of God, does it? Maybe there`s a kind of ... you get what you deserve, God evens out the scores, in a way, not with evil intent, but with justice in mind. Justice and revenge are ... closely related, aren`t they?

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Narkissos, thanks for link, it`s great Leolaia-stuff!

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Hell - I don't know!

    Narkissos has a point. Paul even explicitly sides himself with the Pharisees.

  • Daunt

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