Am I too hung up on dates?

by coolhandluke 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • coolhandluke

    I had a two hour conversation with a friend last night. Frustrating. It was like arguing with myself. He raised several points that under the blanket of too much thinking, I couldn't accurately answer. I told him I'd bring it up at my next ex-JW anonymous meeting.

    Hi, My name is CoolHandLuke and I'm an "apostate". He said in the argument since he couldn't disprove my research on 607/1914 that for this argument we'd throw it out. "It's just a date, Dominick. The signs of the times are what matter." I told him that the date did matter because if it is wrong and Satan was cast out of heaven on another date, in another year, why did nothing significant happen in that year? Wasn't he angry? Deaf ears. His belief is that the reason that the society does not publish retractions for things like this is because the "masses" wouldn't understand. A mass exodus would occur. I told him that at least then I'd respect the slave. I respect Jesus for sticking to his principles regarding the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood. If you want to leave, go. Your ignorance and lack of reasoning has damned you.

    How do I argue this?

  • carla

    How do I argue this?

    That's the 64,000.00 question. The magic bullet doesn't exist. But, maybe someone here can come with something. I hope so. I've had the same discussion with jw too.

  • AlmostAtheist

    What "signs of the times" is your friend excited about?

    Wars? There have always been wars. If anything, wars have lessened in the last 50 years. We had two world wars in the first half of the 20th century, and none since then. Minor ones, but nothing on that scale.

    Sicknesses? The world has seen terrible plagues, but not recently. And thanks to modern medical understanding, even if one tries to break out, we have the resources and know-how to limit the scope of it. (Or so we arrogantly believe!)

    Earthquakes? There is no evidence that earthquakes have been more prominent in recent years. More deaths resulted from them, perhaps, since we have more people living on the planet and living more densely. But not more actual shaking of the earth.

    So what signs does he think exist?


  • coolhandluke

    He wasn't specific Dave. I think it was the composite sign that he was refering to. Not sure. This was at the end of a two hour debate with someone who argues as well as I do, in the same style that I do. I was on fumes. I am afraid that he will categorize me into the group of people who "Put off the time of the end" and I dont want that. He is at least reasonable with me. He is a rare thinker.

    At one point he said, "No matter what you say, where is there to go to? If JW's aren't the closest thing to what we are looking for in the true religion, then what is out there for us?" I told him that this question means one of two things, (1) Either God is wrong, or is being his usual vague self or (2) There is no God

  • RunningMan

    Well, 607 is really the cornerstone of JW theology. Without 607 there is no 1914. With no 1914, then Jesus didn't inspect his earthly holdings and appoint the governing body to be the faithful and discrete slave.

    But, if he wants to argue about the signs, focus on pestilence. Keep in mind that the death rate today is the same as it always was and always will be - one per person. So, to point to the Spanish flu, cancer or heart disease on the increase is pointless. People who die of cancer today would have died of something else in the past. Cancer and heart disease have increased because people live longer today.

    The key is life expectancy. Two hundred years ago, life expectancy at birth was around 35 years. One hundred years ago, it was below 50. Today, it is in the upper 70s. Numerous causes of death have been either eliminated or reduced. On the basis of person-years, pestilence is less than half of what it was two centuries ago.

    Also, in the past century, we have seen a population explosion. No one can argue that point. Even the society recognizes it. But, what causes a population explosion? - Lack of death.

    We can prove several different ways that we are currently living in the most pestilence-free time period in history. The pestilence sign is unequivocally absent.

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    From everything I have read discussing doctrine will rarely help to really get them thinking.

    He is using thought stopping statements like "Where else is there to go" His mind becomes closed and you won't get anywhere

    Two things seem to work.

    1. Helping them to see that the WTS/GB is not what it claims to be.
    2. Getting to their mind through their heart.

    1. There is a scripture and I always forget where it is that if a "prophet" utters a prophesy and it doesn't come true then they aren't a real prophet. Then list all the "prophesies" that have been predicted and how many of them were right? That's the short list zero The long list is that every prediction made my the WTS has proved false. All the way back to Russell.
    2. Jesus clearly stated that his true disciples would have love amongst themselves. Where is the proof that this applies only to JWs? They will try to wiggle out of this by saying they are the only ones who don't go to war. They aren't and there is proof. I saw a thread on here the other day about this although I didn't read it.
  • blondie

    The WTS connects 1914 with 1918 when God inspected Christians (the temple) and say that only the WTS was found worthy of being the only true religion. They use a prophecy regarding 3 1/2 years from October 1914 and that in 1919 Babylon the Great fell and the WTS was released from bondage.

    Without the exact date of October 1914, they only years don't work out composite sign or not.

    This is how they establish they are the FDS.

  • TD

    The JW's believe that they as an organization were directly involved with and in some cases actually the target of quite a number of Bible prophecies and prophetic parallels that were realized in the 20th century. Most of these are directly tied to dates

    Therefore what did or didn't happen on these dates as well as the accuracy of the dates themselves can't be dismissed as irrelavant because they carry an important doctrinal significance.

    For example the JW's believe that Christ returned in the fall of 1914. For the next 3 1/2 years he conducted an inspection of all Christianity. He then rewarded the leadership of the Bible Students (a.k.a. Rutherford & Co.) by appointing them over all his belongings in 1919. The entire F&DS doctrine hangs on this alleged appointment.

    If that date is wrong, then it becomes obvious even to JW's that this status is entirely self-proclaimed. In other words, the "slave" simply declared himself to be righteous. In the JW world, this is a serious thing, because a slave that uses a self-proclaimed status to assert authority over his fellow slaves, is by defninition, NOT righteous.

  • coolhandluke

    I'm printing this out. You guys are the best.

    Blondie, the two geocities links are dead. What was in them?

  • OldSoul

    I would recommend you go with what matters to him.

    Matthew 24:23-28 — “Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

    That may not be clear enough, but the references from this text, pulled straight from the CD-ROM, should provide enough source material:

    Extracted Marginals and Citations — Rbi8 Matthew 24:23-24:28
    Matthew 24:5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.
    Luke 17:23 And people will say to YOU, ‘See there!’ or, ‘See here!’ Do not go out or chase after [them].
    1 John 4:1 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.
    1 John 2:18 Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour.
    Deuteronomy 13:1 “In case a prophet or a dreamer of a dream arises in your midst and does give you a sign or a portent,
    Matthew 7:15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.
    Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the chosen ones.
    2 Peter 2:1 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.
    Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’
    2 Thessalonians 2:9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents
    Revelation 13:13 And it performs great signs, so that it should even make fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.
    Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the chosen ones.
    John 13:19 From this moment on I am telling YOU before it occurs, in order that when it does occur YOU may believe that I am [he].
    Luke 17:23 And people will say to YOU, ‘See there!’ or, ‘See here!’ Do not go out or chase after [them].
    Job 37:3 Under the whole heavens he lets it loose, And his lightning is to the extremities of the earth.
    Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One.
    Luke 17:24 For even as the lightning, by its flashing, shines from one part under heaven to another part under heaven, so the Son of man will be.
    1 Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.
    1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death];
    Luke 17:37 So in response they said to him: “Where, Lord?” He said to them: “Where the body is, there also the eagles will be gathered together.”
    Job 39:30 And its young ones themselves keep sipping up blood; And where the slain are, there it is.”

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