Appropriateness of Women's Headcovering (page 5)

JosephMalik

Old Soul,

Yes, just look at all the problems Paul had to deal with. It was not just about the Law. There were the Legal rules ones, pertaining to government and their requirements which was another area he commented on. The ground rules he established was that all such government were put in place by God, (Romans 13) and literally created by Christ (Col 1:16) for the purpose of maintaining order here on earth until the Kingdom replaces them. We have an obligation to obey them as well. So you pointed out how he dealt with such issues as slavery. Are we to think that our obedience to such Governments is equated to serving God? In many things such as this yes. Where do we draw the line? Well that I cannot answer for everyone. Christ knows our circumstances and the scriptures guide us but how we treat others has a lot to do with it.

Joseph

JosephMalik

I wouldn't try to convince you of anything. I hope you can bear with some conversation going on after you have spoken.

Narkissos,

Sure you would and you did try. Is there a rule somewhere I missed that I cannot jump into such comments? I have discovered many things as a result of such intense discussions and corrected my work in times past. It is amazing how little things that seem of no consequence make the difference on major doctrinal issues. And it is amazing how much error along with the good that we find everywhere in literature and commentaries. So sounding them out really helps and if I should get stung sometimes, well I get over it and move on. The idea is to not to spew out the same errors again hoping to find someone else that will listen. Each one of us is responsible for what we teach others and we will be judged accordingly.

Joseph

Leolaia

PP....The similarity is the reference to "women" (gunaikas) and "silence" (sigés), an association of words found in this passage in 1 Corinthians. The reference to women being silent in 1 Timothy uses a different word, hésukhia "quietness" (cf. also hésukhia and women in 1 Peter 3:4). Although it is only two words, I find it compelling because (1) these are the most critical words of the passage, expressing the thought of women being silent, and (2) the author of 1 Clement makes extensive use of 1 Corinthians, many of these allusions as focused as this example. On the other hand, I just noticed that Sirach 26:13 also associates these two words, so perhaps it is just coincidental, tho the two words are associated with each other within Christian literature only in 1 Corinthians and 1 Clement before Clement of Alexandria used them.

JosephMalik

Leolaia, Sometimes this helps and sometimes not. That women can win their husbands over by such quietness is another matter. The apostles were dealing with a mindset so ingrained by the Law and tradition that reason did not always work. There is more than one way to preach the good news. Our conduct especially the conduct of women in such situations enters into our ministries as well. Pay attention to what is being taught and why. This is why staying with the text and the overall context and purpose for it makes the difference most of the time. Joseph

FlyingHighNow

When I was a child, growing up in mostly Catholic south eastern Louisiana, all women and girls wore little lace circles on their heads or lace scarfs made just for church services to church. They don't wear them anymore. They were pretty, but that's about it.

What is this need for men to control women? Why do women need to be controlled?

I'd love to know the answer to the first question. It's one of the saddest, most perplexing qualities of those men. It's also infuriating at times. I never needed to be controlled. I was not one who just sat there like a quiet little mouse and did everything I was told to. I basically tried to get along and have an equitable relationship with my jw husband and men in general. Some brothers and my exhusband didn't like it. I was nice, but I asserted my right to be a full adult. My husband divoced me. Do think I gave one second's thought to fighting him? I'm happily an ex these days and only regret that my son was hurt by the split.

I hope your daughter is happier now, FHN!

She's trying to recover. She's still in much pain. She's 26 and the mother of two sons. She will not speak to her stepfather. A fat lot of good his brooding over headship got him. I am very grateful that my children do not blame me for raising them inside the dark confines of the org. My son does wonder how adults could fall for such crap though.

TheListener

Leolaia,

The word from 1 cor. 14:34 - ASV " let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law."

4601 sigao {see-gah'-o}
from 4602;; v
AV - hold (one's) peace 4, keep silence 3, keep close 1, keep secret 1; 9
1) to keep silence, hold one's peace
2) to be kept in silence, be concealed
For Synonyms see entry 5847

I also reviewed 1 peter and 1 timothy where the word hesuchia was used.

1 Timothy 2:11 - ASV " Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection"

1 Peter 3:4 - ASV " "but [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible [apparel] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price."

2271 hesuchia {hay-soo-khee'-ah}
from 2272;; n f
AV - silent 3, quietness 1; 4
1) quietness
1a) description of the life of one who stays at home doing his own
work, and does not officiously meddle with the affairs of others
2) silence

Perhaps the difference is that in 1 Cor. Paul is saying that women shouldn't be disagreeable in the ekklesia. I get the feeling (which doesn't mean much) that SIGAO signifies someone who stays quiet strategically so as not to cause a ruckus. Perhaps due to the Jewish view of women? It seems to me that HESUCHIA is one who is basically a quiet and mild mannered person - or trying to be - or should be.

That could necessarily change the strength of the verse in 1 Cor. from "do not open your mouth; do not speak" to do not be speaking if it will cause someone to stumble (like the Jews around them). The same sort of thing for 1 Timothy and 1 Peter. Perhaps Paul is asking the women to be careful with their christian freedom.

I don't know I'm just starting to learn how to think for myself. And it isn't easy!!!

Narkissos

jgnat,

Sure you can borrow (as we all do without asking!) Interesting article btw.

Perhaps I should have emphasised better that "submission of women" reflects just one side of early Christianity, which became dominant in the 2nd-century proto-Catholic "great church". See Leolaia's thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/92014/1.ashx for more.

Joseph,

No problem of course. I often found, in my own case, that it takes time to see the value of other people's points which we tend to hastily dismiss in a heated discussion. I can still remember many a householder's thought that I easily "refuted" as a JW and which came back to my mind years later. We're all sowing (and sowing ourselves at the same time), what will eventually grow we may never know.

Leolaia,

Another possibility is that 1 Corinthians 14:34f(f) and 1 Clement might originate from the same milieu...

Shining One

Hey Joe,
>No! And the KJV translators were not dummies were they?

According to you they were dummies regarding the deity of Christ. You have said that you know beter than them how to tranlate scripture when you are making Christ a 'little god'. LOL
Rex

Mysterious

What I find funny is how much of the witness culture is such subculture that "new ones" never hear about things like this until it comes up. I think I was nearly 10 before a sister had to cover her head to pray for a service group and I was very confused by it.

Shining One

Listener,
34-36. Let the women keep silence in the churches. This, in view of other portions of the Scriptures, is confessedly a difficult passage. In 1 Tim. 2:11, 12, We have the same teaching. On the other hand, Deborah was a judge and a prophetess; Huldah was a prophetess; Joel predicted that in the Christian dispensation "the sons and daughters should prophesy" (Joel 2:28), and Peter declared that this was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4). In addition, the daughters of Philip prophesied (Acts 21:9), and in 1 Cor. 11:5, Paul gives directions concerning women prophesying. Probably these apparent discrepancies may be reconciled as follows: (1) Paul's prohibition of speaking to the women is, in the churches; that is, in the church assemblies when "the whole church is come together into one place" (verse 23). It is an official meeting of the church. "Church" in the New Testament always means the ecclesia. It does not apply to such informal meetings as the social or prayer-meetings, but to formal gatherings of the whole body. (2) It may be that even this prohibition was due to the circumstances that existed in Ephesus, where Timothy was, and in Corinth, and would not apply everywhere. If so, it applies wherever similar circumstances exist, but not elsewhere. Both were Greek churches. Among the Greeks public women were disreputable. For a woman to speak in public would cause the remark that she was shameless. Virtuous women were secluded. Hence it would be a shame for women to speak in the church assembly. It is noteworthy that there is no hint of such a prohibition to any churches except Grecian. Wherever it would be shameful, women ought not to speak. 36. What? Was it from you that the word of God went forth? A rebuke. The Corinthian church must receive instruction, not give it. It did not send out the word of God, but the word of God was sent to it.
This is from the Peoples Study bible.
Rex

Appropriateness of Women's Headcovering

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