The Great Crowd

by buffalosrfree 29 Replies latest jw friends

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  buffalosrfree

  Was talking with wife a day or so ago and she asked me a question on the w.t. for sunday, it had to do with the Annointed and Malachi 3:17 being applicable in a modern day fulfillment and also for the great crowd, The question went something liek this "In Principal, how is the great crowd part of the prophecy of malachi 3:17?"

  Well when opportunity knocks you had better open the door, So I says well turn here to Rev 7:14 she of course had to read it too, so I told her there is no great crowd, has the great tribulation happened? If not, then no one has lived through it, so how could this apply to Jehovah Witness, She went into the thing about well the society wouldn't put it in there if it wasn't true, so I asked her who are you going to believe the WtBts or the Bible.

  That stumped her for awhile, then she asked me why would they put that in there if there isn't a designated great crowd of people who lived thru the great trib? Then she was adamant about not answering that question because she didn't want to start something or bring attention on to herself, but she thought long and hard about it. So maybe some light is dawning.
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  defd

  9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

  11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! The blessing and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength [be] to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

  13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”
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  Leolaia

  You might want to take a look at my study of the relevant passages in Revelation:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/96705/1.ashx

  The "Great Crowd" is in heaven, and they do not survive the Great Tribulation without dying, they are martyrs....they are put to death during the tribulation by the Beast and the nations serving him (13:7-10, 15; cf. 12:11, 17:6)....they join the "souls" of the martyrs already in heaven described in 6:9-11 (completing the "roll" of faithful martyrs).
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  joelbear

  sounds like the great crowd is in heaven with the angels
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  Honesty

  Notice also where they are serving:

  Rev 7:13-17 (HCSB)

  13 Then one of the elders asked me, “Who are these people robed in white, and where did they come from?”

  14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
  Then he told me:
  These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation.
  They washed their robes and made them white
  in the blood of the Lamb.

  15 For this reason they are before the throne of God,
  and they serve Him day and night in His sanctuary.
  The One seated on the throne will shelter them:

  16 no longer will they hunger; no longer will they thirst;
  no longer will the sun strike them, or any heat.

  17 Because the Lamb who is at the center of the throne will shepherd them;
  He will guide them to springs of living waters,
  and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

  *** Rbi8 Isaiah 66:1 ***
  66 This is what Jehovah has said: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that YOU people can build for me, and where, then, is the place as a resting-place for me?”

  *** Rbi8 Revelation 7:13-17 ***
  13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

  The WTBTS can not explain this away so they ignore it when directly asked.
• 

  Leolaia

  Well, there's also:

  "I seemed to hear the loud sound of a huge multitude in heaven, singing, 'Alleluia! Victory and glory and power to our God ! He judges fairly, he punishes justly, and he has condemned the famous prostitute who corrupted the earth with her fornication; he has avenged his servants that she killed" (Revelation 19:1-2).

  The victory song of the Great Crowd here is also very similar to the one sung by them in ch. 7. And the "souls" (psukhas, an instance of the word psukhé in the NT meaning a disembodied soul!) of the martyrs in ch. 6 are described as "underneath the altar" which also clearly locate them in heaven, and these are in heaven prior to the Great Tribulation and Armageddon (and the resurrection) because the full number of them is not yet complete.
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  onacruse

  When I was a book-study conductor, plodding through this issue of who the "great crowd" is, I stated repeatedly that there is no "great crowd" until Armageddon occurs. Those in the group looked at me like I was some kind of weirdo.

  Needless to say (in my best WTS Freddy Franz voice), the definition was soon changed to "prospective members of the great crowd."

  And now, the WTS has for some time been laying out plans for the "Nethinim" to take over for the "anointed"...or shall we say--the "prospective members" of the anointed? After all, we won't know for sure, until they speak to us from heaven, right? Or, maybe, these supposed anointed will end up on earth, side-by-side with the rest of us mere mortals.

  Or, maybe they'll just be more worm-food. What a thought.

  There's nothing wrong with the decades-long expectations and promises of the WTS that can't be corrected by a minor redefinition of terms...by Jehovah's direction, of course.
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  TD

  A little JW history....

  When the doctrine was first introduced in 1935, it was thought that the "great tribulation" had already started with WWI and that they were in the "eye of the tornado" as it were. (This is how they understood the days being "cut short")

  They really, truly thought at the time that the "Jonadabs" had "come out" of the "great tribulation."

  When this was changed, many years later, (early 70's) and the "great tribulation" became entirely a future event, all that could truly be said was that persons with the "earthly hope" were prospective members of the "great crowd" (As Onacruse points out.)

  However this inseparably tied the "great crowd" doctrine to the old understanding of the "generation" like siamese twins. What had made the identification of these prospective members of the "great crowd" possible in 1935 was the proximity of the end.

  To even be a prospective member of the "great crowd" you have to at least live to see it. --Else there is not and never was an "prospect" of surviving it. In other words, if a final generation before the end cannot be identified, then neither can the "great crowd" be identified.
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  sinis

  VS 15 says they are in view of his throne which could imply that they are on Earth looking towards his throne. During the reign of Isreal Jehovah "inhabited" the temple by means of a smoke and fire. Who's to say in the future that his "presence" will not be on earth with man? Sort of reminds me of a builder who builds a primary house and a guest house (where he lives) and rents out the primary house to the tenants. The tenants destroy the house and have little respect. What does the builder do? He takes those family members who are good and tells them to come live with him. Does that make any sense to anyone? Doesn't to me. In my opinion it would be better to get rid of the bad tenants and allow the good ones to stay. I'm not down with that whol going to heaven thing.
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  confusedjw

  This is a great site which gives a summary of the brouchure "Where is the Great Crowd"

  http://www.xjw.com/where.html

  I urge you to read this.