The Atheist's Book of Bible Stories - new - The Long and the Short of It (page 2)

RunningMan

You seem to be saying that cubits are not necessarily cubits and giants are not necessarily giants. If the Bible is saying that Og, King of the giants was a full six or even seven feet tall, then the Bible would be quite believable. However, when someone is describing the magnificent temple to me (which was measured in cubits), there doesn't seem to be much question about the unit of measure. The size of Og is not specifically given - it is implied by his furnishings and title. The size of Goliath is actually given - six cubits and a span (9.5 feet). So it appears to me that when the Bible talks about giants, it means giants.

I must say, these threads have been jolly good fun the last two days. Much more spirited than usual. Unfortunately, I am once again out of articles.

tetrapod.sapien

have i heard of allegory?

allegory's cool, when it stays as allegory. when someone makes the illogical leap from allegory coming via neolithic or bronze age man, to allegory coming from god, it's not cool anymore. it's not even funny at that point.

what is funny, is how the church will take bible accounts that cannot stand on their own, like creation or giants, and call them allegory. i would like to know where the allegory ends, and the facts start? and is the leap between the two, as far as the church is concerned, logical, or illogical?

kid-A

Right on, Tetra!!

the_classicist

You seem to be saying that cubits are not necessarily cubits and giants are not necessarily giants. If the Bible is saying that Og, King of the giants was a full six or even seven feet tall, then the Bible would be quite believable. However, when someone is describing the magnificent temple to me (which was measured in cubits), there doesn't seem to be much question about the unit of measure. The size of Og is not specifically given - it is implied by his furnishings and title. The size of Goliath is actually given - six cubits and a span (9.5 feet). So it appears to me that when the Bible talks about giants, it means giants.

i'm saying that cubits are not a standard measurement and are subjective (especially over time), unlike modern lengths, which have a universal standard. The ancient cubit is aroud 17.49 inches. The bed was 9 cubits and is, as you said, 13.12 feet. Now, beds aren't meant to be the same size as one's body.

Now, the passage in Deuteronomy refers to a remnant of someone's bed, so that we can't really know the real height of the person, and they did know it at the time it was written in Deuteronomy either as is obvious from the passage. But among the people of that area Og was known to be very tall. I find someone who is 7 feet to be giant even though I'm 6 feet 2 inches. And when you were a child, you and all your peers thought that adults were giant in stature. Just because you view the "giant" to mean 50 foot woman, doesn't mean that it does: it's relative.

Now, a lot of heights may seem unbelievable to you, but nature has defied science and common sense before. For example, recently on an island in the Atlantic, non-native mice have grown 3x their size and have started eating infant birds alive. Scientists thought that this was simply impossible, until they actually saw a video of it.

melmac

Reading this thread I realize how hard it is to believe the unbelievable... Bible-thumpers may convince themselves with the maybes. I would rather stick to the facts. And what I see as facts, right now, doesn't make me afraid of giants, or even of a bloodthirsty god...

tetrapod.sapien

Now, a lot of heights may seem unbelievable to you, but nature has defied science and common sense before. For example, recently on an island in the Atlantic, non-native mice have grown 3x their size and have started eating infant birds alive. Scientists thought that this was simply impossible, until they actually saw a video of it.

actually, island dwarfism has been known to scientists for a long time. elephants shrink, and rats grow large. anyways, it's one thing for island mice to become 3x their size. it's completely another thing for 6 foot tall bipedal humans to become 3x their original size.

RunningMan

That's precisely my point throughout the whole book, Mel. If you really want to, you can believe the bible. I did it for a while, myself. But, one day I realized that the mental contortions required to reconcile the increasing pile of discrepancies was just a game - see how you can fix the next one.

That's not how reality works. It's not how we evaluate any other concept.

I can believe that the world is flat if I redefine the words "flat", "world", and "is". Or, if I change the frame of reference to ameobic scale, or perhaps bring in an exotic theory on the curvature of space. It can be reconciled. But really, the world is not flat, and there is no God.

Thanks, Classicist and Rex for the real-time demonstrations.

stillajwexelder

excellent runingmn and the math was very easy to follow - I asume you would use Kinetic Energy = 1/2 mv^2

stevenyc

If you want to believe the bible stories as metaphore, fine. Og was a 13 foot giant decendent of the Nephalim. If you take it as all true, then you shouldn't balk at a 13 foot man. After all, moses had just parted the red sea. And one of his desendents was about to go into battle where the earth stopped rotating, to give him more sunlilght to complete the job.

steve

the_classicist

actually, island dwarfism has been known to scientists for a long time. elephants shrink, and rats grow large. anyways, it's one thing for island mice to become 3x their size. it's completely another thing for 6 foot tall bipedal humans to become 3x their original size.

In volume, it's believable, but not in height (3x, I mean).

If you want to believe the bible stories as metaphore, fine. Og was a 13 foot giant decendent of the Nephalim. If you take it as all true, then you shouldn't balk at a 13 foot man. After all, moses had just parted the red sea. And one of his desendents was about to go into battle where the earth stopped rotating, to give him more sunlilght to complete the job.

Steve, it didn't say he was 13 ft., it said his bed was.

Thanks, Classicist and Rex for the real-time demonstrations.

What I'm saying is that "giant" is a relative word, though you may not accept that. Some people are generally smaller than others, this is genetic (possibly, though we don't know conclusively), dietary, and there are other factors. Now, it is possible that these Nephilim had average heights of 6-7 feet, while the others had an average of around 5 feet. Now, one tribe would definitely seem like giants to the other, especially in battle, which is where two different tribes usually meet.

The Atheist's Book of Bible Stories - new - The Long and the Short of It

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