It cannot be denied (page 2)

blondie

Sounds like one of those Nature or Nurture questions.

True, we are influenced by many factors beyond our control. However, just because we cannot isolate the causes or motivations for something does not mean we have no control over the course of events. I think of it this way: our enviroment and heredity are the vehicle and fuel of our actions. We probably don't have control of the accelerator and brakes all the time, but we often have good control of the steering. Just because we can't control our speed doesn't mean we can't control our direction. To say that we must have full control or no control would be a false dilemma.

Arguments about such things are fruitless, however, because we can't argue conclusively and concretely about the causes of our thoughts with thoughts alone. Such reason could only come from a source external from the human condition, and none of us know of or communicate with such a source, if it even exists. I can't conclude that environment and desire and need is the only thing mandating our actions, though. To live in society, we forego and repress our most base desires everyday. Ever read any Freud?

I agree with your statement about the difference between us and monkeys--it all comes back to Rene Descartes saying "cogito, ergo sum." Thoughts, while impotent in regards the knowledge of their own nature, are still mankinds' greatest resource.

orangefatcat

I am prone to go along with the following philosophy,

Epictetus summed it up in this manner.

The good or ill of a man lies within his own will.
Epictetus
Roman (Greek-born) slave & Stoic philosopher (55 AD - 135 AD)

Orangefatcat

TD

....Neither can it be asserted

funkyderek

John Doe:

but we ultimately have the choice of what we are and what we will do. I believe we can actually change our brain chemistry by what we choose to focus on--we're not merely mechanical products of our surroundings.

But what's the "we"? If, as I believe, we are entirely natural entities then we behave exactly as the chemistry of our brains at a particular moment dictates that we behave. There's no extra person to override that. If, on the other hand, there is a "ghost in the machine", a soul if you will, then on what basis does that soul make decisions? Does it make them based on its own nature and experiences, in which case we've just moved the problem back a level? Or does it make completely free choices in which case its behaviour is uncaused and therefore random?

ballistic

Even people who are identical twins "wire" their brains differently. Your DNA alone will not predict how you will react in a certain environment.

zen nudist

if my actions have causes, am I free? if no causes, do I will them? is there another option?

I believe freewill is an illusion to a degree.... namely we feel like we are initiating the act and no one else is pulling our strings, so there is no one else to blame and we must accept the consequences of our actions.... so I can say that I did x, y, and z and you can jail me or pay me for it.... and that is as free as any act need be, right?

however in the grand scheme of things, I had no control over being human [that I recall], no control over my parentage, heredity, DNA structure, neighborhood, childhood associates, school, religion [until I turned of an age where my parents gave me some say = 12]

many of the beliefs that my mind became programmed to accept as truths have been overturned by experience, feedback and new information, none of which seems free but all connected by events that I had to live through.... and conclusions and beliefs my mind has come up with on its own are not my choice either, as Logan said, they sort of just pop into my head when they feel like it.... try as I might I cannot force my mind to invent the next great invention...etc.

from another angle.... the present moment seems to be the last event in an eternally long chain of parallel events which has brought each and everyone of us to a specific 3 dimensional location. and so far no one has demonstrated any ability to change any event in that long chain.

the last link of that chain according to quantum physics was about 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds ago and there was no possible way I could chose anything in that time till now... when I make a choice it takes about 0.3 seconds for me to become consciously aware of it [THE USER ILLUSION] which means that my decision making process takes a huge number of clicks of the quantum clock with my brain chugging along at the speed of chemical reactions using trillions of neurons in parallel to decide which way to go.... I find no place for freewill in this mechanism.... no room for the ghost in the machine to do anything but notice what is happening and perhaps give its input which must be from some other processing which would naturally take time as well.... no free lunch, no freewill

Terry

Evil exists where Good people exist and only where good people exist. Why?

Evil is sucked into the vacuum when Good people abandon rational thought and follow with choices that are binary: choosing the lesser of two evils rather than merely the good choice.

All the goods in life (wealth, health, beauty, fame, longevity, knowledge, etc) are only acquired by the rational man earning it all through rational deeds. By rational I mean in harmony with what is real (reality) and not acting as though a "different" alternate reality can be pursued instead.

Victims are created when the Good man fails to act. Evil is the abandonment of logic (the art of noncontradictory measurement) because we must measure our deeds accurately or suffer the natural consequence in a cause and effect universe.

Our DNA gives us our physical form and our physical potential. Our taking charge of our mind and focusing it on reality is what gives us our morality. Morality is practical and achieves those goods which prolong life and fill it with enjoyment. Failure to exercise our mind intelligently leads to poor choices and evil consequences. Identical twins share the same DNA. Many identical twins lead morally differing lives. They may dress the same and drive the same car but their lives end up differently according to the choices wrought by their philosophy. This, in and of itself destroys your thesis.

Evil follows the laxity of the Good.

When we fail to speak out at an injustice or to point the finger of accusation at a wrong deed we allow that vacuum in goodness to suck in the consequence. That is evil.

T.

dh

theif, addict,

you think that makes a person evil?

i agree with the 'we only think we are free' bit for sure, as that is what i have felt most of my life, the so called freedom we have 0is relative to the controlled environment we live in, which is physical, and therefore not free, but bound.

logansrun

dh,

I don't think anyone is evil, although I do classify some actions as evil. Notice I used quotation marks around "evil."

B.

It cannot be denied

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