does "randomness" exist? (page 2)

DannyBloem

Pole,

good plan to move the post to this thread, we were hyjacking this poor skymans thread a bit :)

Anyway, I think that we basically agree, but maybe used different words to describe it.

I think there is real randomness in the universe, but that is only on sub-atomic scale.

A large collction of randomness can be very deterministic however.
Complex systems sometimes seem random, but they are just complex.

I think we can use a definition of randoness also here, as google is looking for one, I await....

Danny

definition of "random"... hmm. something without a cause? or something impossible to forecast? but if we don't see a cause, or if we are not able to preview something, maybe we only don't have the means (yet). is "randomness" just another "god"? or is the "hidden variable" another "god"?

Pole

Danny,
::I think there is real randomness in the universe, but that is only on sub-atomic scale.
Or is it true determinism? LOL. The chicken or the egg? ;-) Until then I'll trust your assertion. ;-).
::I think we can use a definition of randoness also here, as google is looking for one, I await....
I don't edited:(think) google can google up a genuinely positive definition of randomness. If he can - that would be resplendant. LOL
Cheers,
Pole

Pole

See?!? Just I said google has another negative definition of randomness!!!

LOL

Pole of the "I was right, I was right!" class

googlemagoogle

is randomness determined?

Pole

google,

::is randomness determined?

That's how ya should've phrased your original question. You'd've got no replies at all.

hahaha,

Pole

DannyBloem

Pole,

::I think there is real randomness in the universe, but that is only on sub-atomic scale.

Or is it true determinism? LOL. The chicken or the egg? ;-) Until then I'll trust your assertion. ;-).

This is a difficult question. Most scientists believe that the processes to describe the quantum mechanics are truly random. With random in this case I mean that there is no cause. This is called the copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics. Not everybody agrees though.
It is very difficult to imagine things without a cause, but it looks like that this is the most likely the case. In fact the whole quantum physics, a a very powerfull theory, that made a lot of predictions that are verified, is based on calcultion with random probability functions. In fact we can't speak from hard elementary particles as many people thing, but we have to speak of parability waves etc.

Google, Your definition of random is a bit vague, and not sure what god has to do with it. I think there are different definitions of 'random', depending on the context. As for your example the computer rand() function can be a good random in the context. And for programmers it is very easy if this random numbers are repeatable to check calculations. But them we can still speak about random in this context. Danny

Pole

Danny,
I guess we basically agree and I'm sorry to be such a pain in the ass again but:
::random probability functions.
All probability functions are only partly random. In other words they are all affected to some extent by arbitrary deterministic tendencies. If these functions were "truly" representing the ultimate nature of randomness (whatever this might be?) there wouldn't be so many of them. The term "random functions" is confusing. Admit that and I'll shut up. ;-)
Edited to add: the very meaning of "function" suggest some sort of rouhgly predictable mapping, doesn't it?
End of the post
Pole

googlemagoogle

You'd've got no replies at all.

;-)

not sure what god has to do with it.

just an analogy. like the "god of gaps". if we don't know the reason it's either "randomness" or "hidden variables". and both can't be proven i guess.

Pole

Danny,

::not sure what god has to do with it.

See Pascal's wager. lol

Pole

does "randomness" exist?

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