Dichotomy of a Schizophrenic God

by Amazing1914 17 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing1914
    Amazing1914

    READ AT YOUR OWN RISK

    Dichotomy of a Schizophrenic God

    The following post was the basis of my arguments in a debate with Jim Penton in October 2004 at the Northwest Conference in Wenatche, WA. He argued that a Christian should be a pacifist, whereas I argued that we should not judge a Christian who may be in the military. I am a conscientious objector, but understand that some wars must be fought. I do not include Jim Penton's many good points and arguments, because that is not the reason for this posting.

    This post caused some serious consternation resulting in some accusing me of blasphemy and abominations. It is written in a thought-provoking style with NO intended disrespect for Almighty God. I admit that some of the points made could shock some Christians because of the hard realities involved. Some Christians may not have realized some of these points before, and could find their views threatened. The word "dichotomy" used in the title is the clue as to how this post was constructed, and should have been understood. I am interested in your comments. Thanks, Jim W. Posted by Jim Whitney on Sun - Jul 17 - 7:51pm on Channel C: I will provide scriptures later if needed. We have been talking about the ways of war and whether Christians would or should serve in the military. Lets start at the beginning. The Bible tells us that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He does not change. What is his view of war?

    In Genesis it is God who first introduces the spinning and flaming "Sword" to Adam and Eve to keep them from the Garden of Eden. These two new humans had no experience with war, or weapons, or anything like that. God himself introduced the first weapon in recorded history.

    God does not deal with Adam and Eve's sin with a nice discussion and some non-physical or non-violent discipline ... no, for eating some fruit, he chooses the death penalty, and a difficult death by old age, disease, and infirmity. Further, he condemns the entire human race to death by such horrid means ... all for a bite of the apple.

    God then fights for his captive people to get them out of Egypt. Does he use nice guy passive tactics, or advanced technology to merely gently bar the Egyptians from messing with his people? No, he kills their first-born, wipe out crops, send in locusts, turns water to blood, and then in a giant swoop, kills Pharaoh’s army in the collapse of the walls of water in the Red sea. This is God's example to all nations and to Israel, his people. Kill, kill, kill ... slaughter with violence!

    Then, when Israel was about to take the promised land, could God simply have taken some barren unoccupied dessert and made it lush with life and moved his people there ... not uprooting other nations? Would not this have demonstrated peace? Or, if he was going to dispossess people from the land for Israel, could he not moved them gently without killing them, thus setting an example of kindness? No, he had Israel go in and slaughter these people for decades.

    Not only did Israel slaughter male warriors, they killed civilian men, women, children, babies, and even livestock in a purification process - all "ordered" by God, and it was considered rank unfaithfulness by God to even keep a small spoil, such as some little gold bars. Achan and his clan were wiped out for this, and before they were wiped out, Israeli soldiers died because of his sin! Why? What possible pathetic excuse can anyone today make for this kind of psychotic behavior?

    Added to this, God deliberately kept nations about Israel in order for Israel to fight so as to keep them trained for war. In other words, God uses such violence to keep teaching violence for the very purpose of war! This was God's clear command! YHWH is a manly person of war, a God of Armies, and he has his people slaughter other peoples like there is no tomorrow! Oh sure, he stops David from building his temple because of the blood on his hands ... the very God ordained and commanded blood!

    If we look at the animal kingdom, whether in the sea, air or land, we see constant vicious death. The lion is designed to chase down and kill a deer or gazelle. Snakes bite and their poison kills with extreme pain and suffering. Bears cut their victims to pieces with their powerful sharp nails. Bulls gore with their horns, insects like scorpions and black widows kill with powerful poison, and so on ... all designed by God in the most violent and gruesome manner of killing. Animals kill Christians and non-Christians alike all the time.

    To save humanity, God does not choose some pacifist method to set any example of peacefully redeeming humans. No, he chooses to have his own son die by being nailed to a cross/stake at the hands of soldiers ... and having his side pierced with a spear. Why the violence?

    Yes, Jesus told Peter to put away the sword just before he died ... but why did Peter and the Apostles keep and bare swords in the first place? Clearly, Jesus was not blind and would have said something if weapons were so bad to have on hand! And, Jesus took the opportunity to brag about the legions of angels he had at his command, ready to do battle if he wants. Why have such heavenly armies? Why brag about this type of capability?

    God then shows his own son in the future, with armies of angels and resurrected heavenly humans engaged in the greatest massive slaughter in the history of the universe. Eyes popping out of heads, hands instantly withering, blocks of stones and fire falling from the sky to crush and burn people.

    But then, through Jesus, we are told to love our enemy, do good to our enemy, do not resist our enemy, to put away the sword, stand down, and accept being slaughtered by our enemies. We are to show love, kindness, gentleness, and peace ... amidst all these terrible metaphors of war and real life history of God's wars, and promised wars in the future. All the violent and bloodthirsty examples are given to us at the hand of God, and we are to learn peace?

    Is there something wrong with this picture? Are we getting conflicting messages? Or, is there something wrong with our interpretation of Jesus and his teachings?

    God tells us, through the Apostle Paul that the government is our minister, appointed by God as his servant to execute justice with the sword. So, some kind of police or military force has been used to deal harshly with bad guys, and sometimes good guys.

    I understand all the good studious and scholarly efforts to quote early Christians, and take certain Bible verses to prove one side or the other ... but frankly, anyone can take either side and make a case that God either loves peace, gentleness, and kindness, or one can make a case that God is a blood-thirsty lover of killing and he glorifies war. The Battle of the Great Day of God the Almighty is found in his closing work of cleansing humanity! Even if this is allegorical, why did God inspire the example using metaphors of violence and war and painful slaughter?

    What puzzles me even more is how we can sit here, like little schizophrenics and debate this stuff ... argue and fight with words like we are in a battle? It is beyond me. It makes no sense. Unless, we take another long hard look, and are willing to stop fighting with words long enough to try and figure out the God we worship, the love he has, and how there is room for both peace and war, for fighting and standing down from fighting.

    Ecclesiastes says there is a time for war and a time for peace. A time to break down and a time to build again. War and death are part of the cycles of our human and spiritual experience. Our Christian experience is even termed in metaphors of war ... putting on the suit of armor and carrying the sword of the spirit. Clearly, God inspires our work as a warrior.

    The reason that I continue to be a conscientious objector is not because I wish not to seek justice through severe penalties, even the death penalty ... but because I don't frankly know for sure what God wants me to do. While I am coming to terms with early Christianity and examining the Orthodox church as it is today in the 21st century ... I am still trying hard to wade through these other confusing messages.

    I frankly find that judging the pacifists or warriors among us is not a good thing to do until we can concretely reconcile this seeming dichotomy of schizophrenia on the part of our God.

    Jim W.

  • nowisee
    nowisee

    jim w --

    thank you for articulating this so clearly. i have been having trouble with exactly these, what seem to be mixed messages. trying to reconcile them is difficult; the fact that they are there at all is quite confusing to me.

    best wishes, nowisee

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Blasphemous and abominatious. My, my. Anyways, you pinpointed this issue very well. As much as i respect jim penton and a few others, the fact that they can continue, full steam ahead w religion for so long in the face of challenges such as this is puzzling.

    S

  • Amazing1914
    Amazing1914

    Hi Satanus,

    I still continue to be a Christian. But, I accept that war, and sefl defense, and state executions under the right conditions are acceptable. I see some of these accounts in the OT as possibly allegorical. I am not a pacifist per se. The problem I have with some who insist on pacifism is that their view, while noble and not harmful to others, does not square up with God, who felt quite free to whack humans as he desired. We have to be intellectually honest, and at least acknowledge that war and killing was done at God's direction.

    Jim W.

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    When our infinite Source is shrunk to Lilliputian and moronic proportions, we end up with "dichotomy"; which blatantly presents itself when we read the Bible. The problem is the Bible.

    Edited to say: the problem is believing and accepting the Bible as true.

    j

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    I see. *catches breath* You mentioned that you are pacifist at this point because you aren't sure what god wants you to do. I understand that. It will be interesting to see where you go when you finish waiting (if i'm here to see it). Christianity has been warlike from the beginning. It has also mouthed the loving of enemies, feeding them, etc, and the 'golden rule' since it's beginning. That method has succeeded like gangbusters. Have you dismissed the possibility that god is schizophrenic, per the bible?

    S

  • IW
    IW

    Amazing,

    Have you posted your Christian journey here? If so I would be very interested in reading it if you would post a link. I have a feeling we may have walked a similar path.

    IW

  • Amazing1914
    Amazing1914

    Hi IW and Satanus,

    IW: I am in the middle of adding more to my story. I will be dividing and adding chapters. I need to correct grammar and spelling. Then I will publish it. I will add an appendix that has such things as my correspondence with the Society, and my final 29 page 'disassociation' letter to the Elders. So, for now, I am not going to post it here.

    Satanus:

    I see. *catches breath* You mentioned that you are pacifist at this point because you aren't sure what god wants you to do. I understand that. It will be interesting to see where you go when you finish waiting (if i'm here to see it).

    I did not say that I am a pacifist. I am a conscientious objector for the time being. However, I should have better stated that I am so because I do not see any wars on an international scale that I would or should get involved in ... so in that sense I am not sure what God would want of me. I agree with the war on terror in principle, and I am pleased that the people of Iraq are now free. So, in one sense, that war and the one in Afghanistan had good results. But, I am not sure that as a Christian what God would have expected of me in those cases. Likewise, I fully support the state in its war on crime and exercise of police powers. I support capital punishment in some cases. I would defend my home and family to the death.

    Christianity has been warlike from the beginning. It has also mouthed the loving of enemies, feeding them, etc, and the 'golden rule' since it's beginning. That method has succeeded like gangbusters. Have you dismissed the possibility that god is schizophrenic, per the bible?

    Christianity, in its beginning was very peaceful. Early Christians would not participate in the Roman Army, and would not allow someone to get baptized if they joined the Roman Army. On the other hand, Cornelius, a Roman Army officer was blessed by the Holy Spirit and accepted into the Church while he was still in the army. Some Christians believe that he must have left the Roman Army, and others like me, say we just don't know and cannot judge. When Rome persecuted Christians by throwing them to the lions, it would make sense that Christians would not join the Roman Army.

    I don't think that God is schizophrenic. Rather, I think we simply need to better understand how the Bible was written in more of an allegorical sense than we previously realized. My Jewish side of the family have told me that Jews have long held that much of the Bible is allegorical, intended to teach lessons, and not to be taken literally. However, some of the history is literal, and clearly shows that God uses war. So, I have to accept that war is not always bad.

    Jim W.

  • IW
    IW

    Jim,

    I thought I read once that you had more or less left Christianity or close to it. Now you have returned. Is this correct? That was the only thing I was interested in learning about. Your journey back to Christ.

    IW

  • Makena1
    Makena1

    Jim,

    Very well said and thought out. No blasphemy in my humble opinion - just a lot of valid points and questions - similar to Abraham's questions when he learned God was going to annihilate Sodom and Gomorrah. (another violent, Bible based story).

    Although I have been reduced to what most would label as an agnostic (thanks JW's! lol) - it is my fervant wish that after I take my final breath on this earth there will be an opportunity to "speak with" / or mind meld with a supreme being to learn what he or she thinks about the Bible and its fanatical supporters/interpreters.

    Warm regards to you and James Thomas whose posts I very much enjoy as well,

    off to bed

    Mak

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