seems like Ezekiel was pretty good to me
Failed Bible Predictions - What say you?
by TheListener 18 Replies latest watchtower bible
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peacefulpete
Ezekiel anticipated/prophesied specifically that Nebuchanezzar would destroy Tyre's towers and walls, enter it's gates and kill it's women. None of that happened. After a futile long seige he left. A LATER redactor added the words in chapt 29 and 30 that attempts to say that Ezekiel meant for it to happen that way and fortold that as compensation for his efforts he would conquer Egypt. That author was not any better at predictions because that also did not happen. Apologists like to blur reality when saying that Alexander hundreds of years later fullfilled Ezekiel. In fact the prophecy said it would be Nebuchadnezar. Also, Alexander did not use materials from a recently destroyed ruined city to build a causway. He naturally used wood and rocks, but no historian says they were scraps from a ruined city. Furthur, Tyre had evacuated all but the fighting men by the time his army arrived and the walls were not even then destroyed. The city was still existing years later. The wording of Ezekiel about Tyre becoming a drying place for nets and it being thrown into the sea were natural given the city's location. There is nothing here to even suggest divine prophetic powers.
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Qcmbr
Am I reading something different..this prophecy is completely fulfilled:
2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:
3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
Exactly what happened
4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.
5 It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.
Exactly what happened
6 And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 ¶ For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.
8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.
9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.
Exactly what happened
10 By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach.
11 With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground.
12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.
Exactly what happened to the city on the mainland (not the island portion - if that had happened at Nebs time then the prophecy about many nations would be innacurate as only one nation would have done the whole job)
13 And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.
14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
Er..exactly right again. -
TheListener
I'll admit I find this one interesting.
I just don't see in the text any separation of mainland vs. island. However, I do see that the text switches from "he" to "they" in verse 12. Perhaps that is evidence that someone else is intended to do the complete destruction. I guess in the end it's like so many things in life, read the information and make up your own mind.
As far as Egypt is concerned, the payment for Neb's hard work with Tyre. This is what I located on the CDROM from the WTS (lengthy):
*** w70 10/1 pp. 607-608 Questions from Readers ***
Questions from Readers
• Ezekiel 29:1-16 indicates that Egypt would be desolate for forty years.
Did that actually take place?—U.S.A.This desolation of Egypt may have come after Nebuchadnezzar’s conquest of
Egypt. Egypt’s downfall had already been pronounced by Jehovah’s prophet
Jeremiah. (Jer. 25:17-19) It began with Egypt’s decisive defeat at
Carchemish on the Euphrates River by the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar in
the early part of 625 B.C.E. This event is described at Jeremiah 46:2-10 as
well as in the Babylonian Chronicles.Nebuchadnezzar next took over Syria and Palestine, and Judah became a vassal
state of Babylon. (2 Ki. 24:1) Egypt made one last attempt to remain a power
in Asia. The ruling Pharaoh (believed to be Hophra) came to Canaan in answer
to Judean King Zedekiah’s request for military support in his revolt against
Babylon in 609-607 B.C.E. Producing only a temporary lifting of the
Babylonian siege, Egypt’s troops were forced to withdraw and Jerusalem was
left to its destruction.—Jer. 37:5-7; Ezek. 17:15-18.Despite vigorous warning by Jeremiah (Jer. 42:7-22), the remnant of Judah’s
population later fled to Egypt as a sanctuary. (Jer. 24:1, 8-10) But the
fulfillment of Jehovah’s prophecies caught up with the Israelite refugees
when Nebuchadnezzar marched against Egypt and conquered the land.Concerning this, Jehovah’s prophetic words state: “And he [Nebuchadnezzar]
must come in and strike the land of Egypt. Whoever is due for deadly plague
will be for deadly plague, and whoever is due for captivity will be for
captivity, and whoever is due for the sword will be for the sword. And I
will set a fire ablaze in the houses of the gods of Egypt; and he will
certainly burn them and lead them captive.” “Make for yourself mere baggage
for exile, O inhabitress, the daughter of Egypt. For Noph itself will become
a mere object of astonishment and will actually be set afire, so as to be
without an inhabitant. . . . For the very day of their disaster has come in
upon them.”—Jer. 43:11, 12; 46:19, 21.Thus, the certain devastation of Egypt by the forces of Babylon under
Nebuchadnezzar is foretold by Jehovah. And Nebuchadnezzar received Egypt’s
wealth as his ‘pay’ for military service rendered in Jehovah’s execution of
judgment against Tyre, the opposer of God’s people.—Ezek. 29:18-20;
30:10-12.While some commentaries refer to the reign of Amasis (Ahmose) II, the
successor of Hophra, as prosperous, they do so on the testimony of
Herodotus, who visited Egypt over a hundred years later. But the
Encyclopœdia Britannica (1959, Vol. 8, p. 62) comments on Herodotus’ history
of this period: “His statements prove not entirely reliable when they can be
checked by the scanty native evidence.”Also, the Bible commentary of F. C. Cook notes that Herodotus “was indebted
for his information on past history to the Egyptian priests, whose tales he
adopted with blind credulity. . . . The whole story [by Herodotus] of Apries
[Hophra] and Amasis is mixed with so much that is inconsistent and legendary
that we may very well hesitate to adopt it as authentic history. It is by no
means strange that the priests should endeavour to disguise the national
dishonour of having been subjected to a foreign yoke.Hence, while the secular history of Egypt provides no positive evidence of
the prophecy’s fulfillment, we may be confident of the accuracy of the Bible
record. There indeed was a forty-year period of desolation as Jehovah had
clearly foretold. This may have come when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Egypt
following his desolating of Judah and Jerusalem.*** it-1 pp. 698-699 Egypt, Egyptian ***
Defeat by Nebuchadnezzar. But Egypt’s bid to reestablish Egyptian control in
Syria and Palestine was short-lived; Egypt was doomed to drink the bitter
cup of defeat, according to Jehovah’s prophecy already pronounced by
Jeremiah (25:17-19). Egypt’s downfall began with its decisive defeat at
Carchemish on the Euphrates River by the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar as
crown prince in 625 B.C.E., an event described at Jeremiah 46:2-10 as well
as in a Babylonian chronicle.Nebuchadnezzar, now king of Babylon, next took over Syria and Palestine, and
Judah became a vassal state of Babylon. (2Ki 24:1) Egypt made one last
attempt to remain a power in Asia. A military force of Pharaoh (his name is
not mentioned in the Bible) came out of Egypt in answer to King Zedekiah’s
request for military support in his revolt against Babylon in 609-607 B.C.E.
Producing only a temporary lifting of the Babylonian siege, Egypt’s troops
were forced to withdraw, and Jerusalem was left to destruction.—Jer 37:5-7;
Eze 17:15-18.Despite vigorous warning by Jeremiah (Jer 42:7-22), the remnant of Judah’s
population fled to Egypt as a sanctuary, evidently joining Jews already in
that land. (Jer 24:1, 8-10) Places specifically mentioned where they took up
dwelling are Tahpanhes, apparently a fortress city in the Delta region (Jer
43:7-9); Migdol (Nu 33:7, 8); and Noph, considered to be the same as
Memphis, an early capital in Lower Egypt (Jer 44:1; Eze 30:13). Thus, “the
language of Canaan” (evidently Hebrew) was now being spoken in Egypt by
these refugees. (Isa 19:18) Foolishly they renewed in Egypt the very
idolatrous practices that had brought Jehovah’s judgment against Judah. (Jer
44:2-25) But the fulfillment of Jehovah’s prophecies caught up with the
Israelite refugees when Nebuchadnezzar marched against Egypt and conquered
the land.—Jer 43:8-13; 46:13-26.One Babylonian text, dated to Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year (588 B.C.E.), has
been found that mentions a campaign against Egypt. Whether it relates to the
original conquest or merely to a subsequent military action cannot be said.
At any rate, Nebuchadnezzar received Egypt’s wealth as his pay for military
service rendered in Jehovah’s execution of judgment against Tyre, an opposer
of God’s people.—Eze 29:18-20; 30:10-12.At Ezekiel 29:1-16 a desolation of Egypt is foretold, due to last 40 years.
This may have come after Nebuchadnezzar’s conquest of Egypt. While some
commentaries refer to the reign of Amasis (Ahmose) II, the successor of
Hophra, as exceedingly prosperous during more than 40 years, they do so
primarily on the testimony of Herodotus, who visited Egypt over a hundred
years later. But as the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1959, Vol. 8, p. 62)
comments on Herodotus’ history of this period (the “Saitic Period”): “His
statements prove not entirely reliable when they can be checked by the
scanty native evidence.” The Bible Commentary by F. C. Cook, after noting
that Herodotus even fails to mention Nebuchadnezzar’s attack on Egypt, says:
“It is notorious that Herodotus, while he faithfully recorded all that he
heard and saw in Egypt, was indebted for his information on past history to
the Egyptian priests, whose tales he adopted with blind credulity. . . . The
whole story [by Herodotus] of Apries [Hophra] and Amasis is mixed with so
much that is inconsistent and legendary that we may very well hesitate to
adopt it as authentic history. It is by no means strange that the priests
should endeavour to disguise the national dishonour of having been subjected
to a foreign yoke.” (Note B., p. 132) Hence, while secular history provides
no clear evidence of the prophecy’s fulfillment, we may be confident of the
accuracy of the Bible record.Under Persian domination. Egypt later supported Babylon against the rising
power of Medo-Persia. But by 525 B.C.E., the land was subjugated by Cambyses
II, son of Cyrus the Great, and thereby came under Persian imperial rule.
(Isa 43:3) While many Jews doubtless left Egypt to return to their homeland
(Isa 11:11-16; Ho 11:11; Zec 10:10, 11), others remained in Egypt. Thus,
there was a Jewish colony in Elephantine (Egyptian, Yeb), an island in the
Nile near Aswan, some 690 km (430 mi) S of Cairo. A valuable find of papyri
reveals conditions prevailing there during the fifth century B.C.E., about
the time when Ezra and Nehemiah were active in Jerusalem. These documents,
in Aramaic, contain the name of Sanballat of Samaria (Ne 4:1, 2) and of
Johanan the high priest. (Ne 12:22) Of interest is an official order issued
during the reign of Darius II (423-405 B.C.E.) that “the festival of
unfermented cakes” (Ex 12:17; 13:3, 6, 7) be celebrated by the colony. Also
notable is the frequent use of the name Yahu, a form of the name Jehovah (or
Yahweh; compare Isa 19:18), although there is considerable evidence, too, of
definite infiltration of pagan worship.Under Greek and Roman rule. Egypt continued under Persian rule until the
conquest by Alexander the Great in 332 B.C.E., supposedly liberating Egypt
from the Persian yoke but ending for all time the rule by native Pharaohs.
Mighty Egypt had indeed become “a lowly kingdom.”—Eze 29:14, 15. -
TheListener
qcmbr, I understood your post and position regarding Tyre but not the post regarding Egypt. Are you saying that is was desolate and its people scattered and regrouped after 40 years?
What I got from the CDRom basically says that there isn't anything in historical records showing this, but we know Jah is always right, therefore it happened.
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peacefulpete
Lost me there. Lets see Ezekiel (dated by Ezekiel to when Nebuchanezzar was sieging Tyre) fortold that "He" , that is Nebuchanezzar together with his multinational army would completely destroy Tyre, it's walls, towers, and citizens and Tyre would never more exist. (Ezk. 26:14,21, 27:36,28:19).Instead Nebuchanezzar was only able to take the defensless (and likely abandoned and stripped) mainland outpost despite a 13 year seige. He then makes a compromising pact with Tyre that they should pay him tribute. Ezekiel (or a redactor as I suggested) then says that because Nebuchadnezzar left without taking the city as fortold he would be rewarded with the sacking and looting of Egypt. That never happened either. 250 years later Alexander comes and takes the city but does not destroy it's walls or towers or kill it's women and in fact it remains inhabited for centuries. And it continues to exist as a city today.
There is a great amount of squeezing and twisting to make this sound like a fullfillment.
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peacefulpete
However, I do see that the text switches from "he" to "they" in verse 12. Perhaps that is evidence that someone else is intended to do the complete destruction.
"They" refers to the many peoples with, and great army of Nebuchanezzar. There is no reason to read into the text. After Nebuchanezar's failure the text switches to another subject. If the author had intended to suggest that his words were yet to be fullfilled 250 years later surely he would have said that at that point. But however you wan to spin the text, there is no way to ignore that fact that the city continued and still does to this day despite Ezekiel fortelling otherwise. The claim that "many nations" menas that the Greeks would finish the job ignore that this was standard prophet lingo. The "kings of the earth", or the "nations" were many times referred to as the agent of doom. It was a descriptive literary device. Ezekiel specifically says it would be nebuchadnezzar that would do the complete destruction and slaughter of Tyre. Furthur, "many nations" if meant literally would not mean 2.
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Leolaia
There are a number of other good examples. Isaiah (cf. Isaiah 13:7, 21:2) and Jeremiah (cf. Jeremiah 51:11, 28), who both lived before the end of the Neo-Babylonian era, foretold the conquest of Babylon by the Medes. Deutero-Isaiah (cf. Isaiah 43-45) knew better, whereas the author of Daniel likely invented the character of "Darius the Mede" and a Median kingdom prior to the rule of "Cyrus the Persian" to make the prophecies of Jeremiah come true after the fact (cf. Daniel 9:1-2, concerning Daniel reading Jeremiah in "the first year of Darius"). Similarly, the earliest preaching of the prophet Jeremiah (during the reign of Josiah, 621-609 BC) foretold the invasion of Judah by "the kingdoms of the North" (cf. Jeremiah 1:14-15, 4:6-7, 16-17, 6:1, 22), and when this northern enemy failed to appear and Babylon instead was the nation that destroyed Jerusalem, the prophet Ezekiel made mention of the earlier prophecies (cf. Ezekiel 38:17) and explained that this northern foe was a still future enemy (Gog of Magog) that would attack a future restored Israel (cf. Ezekiel 38-39). About the restoration itself, Jeremiah prophesied that after 70 years Israel would be restored and enjoy the peace and blessings brought by a new Davidic kingdom (cf. Jeremiah 23:1-6) and Ezekiel had similar expectations (Ezekiel 37, 40-48). Still later, similar expectations were expressed in Zechariah 8-10, 12-14, but resettled Judea was nothing like the prior expectations of the prophets, and it experienced oppression and indignities by the Hellenistic rulers, culminating in the persecution of Antiochus Epiphanes. The author of Daniel explained why the prophecy had seemingly failed: the 70 years of Jeremiah was really 70 weeks of years (=490 years), during which the Jews were required to atone for the iniquity of their forefathers (cf. Daniel 9:24-27), but for those living during the persecution it was indeed the "time of the end" and the present "time of trouble" was now due to end with the death of Antiochus (11:45), at which time the messianic kingdom and resurrection of the dead would occur (cf. 2:44-45, 7:24-27, 12:1-3). Alas, Antiochus died (and not the way the author of Daniel had expected), but no Davidic kingdom arose in its place and by 66 BC Judea was again under oppression, this time under the Romans. So by the first century AD, Daniel's prophecy was salvaged by assuming that it concerned some future tyrant who would come and do exactly all the things that Antiochus did, only worse. Thus, there was the expectation of a second "abomination of desolation" installed in Jerusalem, a second attack on Jerusalem like that promised of Antiochus -- except this time the enemy would be defeated and the messianic kingdom would come (as predicted by Daniel). This expectation was one of the motivations behind the Jewish Revolt of AD 66-70. But this failed to happen too. Revelation salvages all these prophecies by assuming that the Antiochus-like antichrist (the "Beast") was still to come (tho his arrival is imminent, for the Devil has a "short period of time" 12:12), the great battle between this Beast and his armies lies ahead (16:16, 17-19), which will end in the defeat of the Beast as Daniel had predicted (19:20), and the full blessing of Jerusalem would eventually be restored too (cf. 21-22). But what about Ezekiel's prophecy of Gog of Magog? This would involve a still future attack on restored Israel. The author of Revelation accommodates this prophecy by construing a release of Satan from the abyss after a thousand years of peace, to mobilize the nations and Gog of Magog for war (Revelation 20:7-10). People (pre-millenialists at least) however are still waiting two thousand years later for any of these prophecies to begin fulfillment.
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peacefulpete
It's interesting that the WT quoted above mentions Jeremiah 42:2-22. There the author was so teed off at Jews abandoning Palestine for Egypt that he fortells that all the Jews that go there would be struck by Yahweh with disease, sword and famine, noone escaping. :
13 "However, if you say, 'We will not stay in this land,' and so disobey the LORD your God, 14 and if you say, 'No, we will go and live in Egypt, where we will not see war or hear the trumpet or be hungry for bread,' 15 then hear the word of the LORD, O remnant of Judah. This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: 'If you are determined to go to Egypt and you do go to settle there, 16 then the sword you fear will overtake you there, and the famine you dread will follow you into Egypt, and there you will die. 17 Indeed, all who are determined to go to Egypt to settle there will die by the sword, famine and plague; not one of them will survive or escape the disaster I will bring on them.'
Yet the same WT admits that that did not happen.
While many Jews doubtless left Egypt to return to their homeland
This is another example of failed prediction. Jews established a community there and prospered.
(Isa 11:11-16; Ho 11:11; Zec 10:10, 11), others remained in Egypt.