by sonnyboy 58 Replies latest jw friends
Who has the right to tell me what is Divine and what is not? Why should I purchase a secondhand god, chiseled out of the fears, greeds and agendas of religions and "spiritual leaders"?
Instead I choose to be more present and attentive within the only truth and reality I know: this present moment of Life and conscious-awareness. I silently allow it, to reveal it's Source and Sustenance.
j
Tetra,
I'm curious about your notion of atheists being accountable, to society and to oneself.
Yes, society does hold us responsible for our actions with laws and consequences for disobedience to those laws. Also, society does expect us to conform to certain cultural norms that are considered expected acceptable behavior (eg. Saluting the flag, being politically correct, being racially unbiased, or at least not promoting hate literature, etc.- at least in western democracies, good etiquette, situation ethics, and so on).
But when it comes to being responsible to oneself, I am wondering how you see people who think that it's okay to be bad and selfish at the expense of one's fellow man. For example, some think it's ok to steal, just so long as you don't get caught. The sin is in getting caught. (In fact, in some societies they actually punished you for being caught, not for stealing.)
Where do you see the likes of Hitler and Stalin who are responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent people, including women and children. How about cases of genocide, like Ruwanda and Bosnia? Where is the justice and accountability in all of this? The worst that could happen is the leadership at the top is put to death. Big deal!!!
And what about slavery around the world, particularly in the past? What about child abductions, torture, prostitution, and slave labour? What about the greedy men and their institutions who stop at nothing and care about nothing, destroying and polluting the very planet that sustains all life on earth?
So, a) there is no God. b) the universe is mechanical and completely indifferent c) justice is a myth because there can be no such thing as good or bad or wrong behavior. The worst guy on earth is no different than you or I or anyone else. The difference is he, more often than not, gets away with it all (for the most part). But even if he doesn't, the worst thing that can happen to him is, he dies, which we are all going to do anyway. So let's just let it all hang out and do our own thing, and to hell will everyone else. So what? Who cares? In the end, nothing matters.....not really!!!
If that's the only justice there is in this godless universe, then I don't think very much of this universe. If all the a...holes of the world, like the ones I mentioned get to live lives of luxury, fame, power and influence at the expense of everyone else, then this is a cruel and indifferent universe of the worst kind.
I would like to know how you can explain accountability in the face of all this?
Rod P.
and of course this is completely natural.
It may be a "natural" viewpoint, but its not a neutral viewpoint. For example - interpreting the pyramids (based on geologic naturalism) as natural geologic formations is "natural" as well, however it is certainly not a neutral viewpoint.
I've just recently declared my agnosticism to myself and to one other person in my life. I don't necessarily consider myself an atheist because I believe there very well may be some higher power or non carbon based entities in existence with 'godlike' abilities. Who can say for sure? My question is, do you still find yourself secretly believing in God? By secretly I mean that a part of your brain won't let him go, although the rest of your being thinks that he most likely doesn't exist.
I do consider myself an atheist even though I do also not exclude the existence of some Godlike creatures. I do not belive in the Christian God anymore and do not prat or something, I think that would be silly. I do get some creeps though when I hear the name of Jehovah, but I am sure that is a result of my 30 years in the borg organisation.
Does this feeling ever pass? God-belief has been so instilled within me that it seems impossible to let it go completely. Some may believe that this is God's way of letting me know that he exists, and others may say that this is due to years of brainwashing. Whatever it is, the guilt of rejecting the Judeo/Christian god is there whenever I mention it. I keep thinking, "What if I'm wrong about this and he one day confronts me with it?" I am totally not worried about the confrontation if you put it. There are some reasons 1) if the christian God would exists and allows the world as it is, with all suffering, then would he really cares about what you think. 2) if the God is really the God of the Old Testament, would you even want to worship him.Me NOT! 3) There is so much prove of evolution and this going on a long time. 4) If he really cared, why did he make us like this with all our longing to sins... 5) If he cared what you think he would make things clear. Are road signs written as puzzles? 6) if there would be a God, he would understand. You have enough reasons to believe what you do, and you are honest about it. What more can somebody wish? Or am I more rightious then God? Danny
I think that it boils down to one simple choice 1. The universe in its entirety has come about entirely by natural means; or 2. Some form of higher being/intelligence created it or had a hand in it's development. Personally I think I know which is the more sensible option, and it isn't the cowboy builders in option two.
So, a) there is no God. b) the universe is mechanical and completely indifferent c) justice is a myth because there can be no such thing as good or bad or wrong behavior. The worst guy on earth is no different than you or I or anyone else. The difference is he, more often than not, gets away with it all (for the most part). But even if he doesn't, the worst thing that can happen to him is, he dies, which we are all going to do anyway. So let's just let it all hang out and do our own thing, and to hell will everyone else. So what? Who cares? In the end, nothing matters.....not really!!!
if you see it from this typical point of view, you are correct, in the end nothin of this matters, but this is a very odd and irrational point of view... a point of view which assume you exist after you are dead and non-existant and care about the outcome.... silly no?
when does life really matter? it matters while you are living it and it matters what you do and what others think about you and what they may do to you is you dont navigate their irrational beliefs.
justice is a human construct imposed on other humans when they have similar beliefs
I don't believe in God but if I feel like praying I'll do pray.
I can relate to that. After praying every day for so many years, its a hard habit to break. Sometimes I feel guilty if I don't pray before going to sleep, and other times I just say 'f' it.
Literally.
I think that it boils down to one simple choice 1. The universe in its entirety has come about entirely by natural means; or 2. Some form of higher being/intelligence created it or had a hand in it's development. Personally I think I know which is the more sensible option, and it isn't the cowboy builders in option two.
Rather than a "creator" god being separate from the universe which is "created", or rather than a god which exists somewhere within the universe, could it be Caedes, that the "natural means" is God? Could it be the the phenomenal universe exists within God, and is in no way separate from God? Would this not be the case with a Infinite God, the Alpha and Omega? Perhaps this very moment of conscious-awareness of Life which is expressing right here, right now, is God. Why do we so easily diminish and shrink God down to some object too limited and tiny to be here now? Some Lilliputian master building watching from afar? j
"Rather than a "creator" god being separate from the universe which is "created", or rather than a god which exists somewhere within the universe, could it be Caedes, that the "natural means" is God? Could it be the the phenomenal universe exists within God, and is in no way separate from God? Would this not be the case with a Infinite God, the Alpha and Omega? Perhaps this very moment of conscious-awareness of Life which is expressing right here, right now, is God. Why do we so easily diminish and shrink God down to some object too limited and tiny to be here now? Some Lilliputian master building watching from afar?" From the point of view of my choices that argument falls squarely into option two (which I have attempted to word as openly as possible: feel free to come up with a more open statement for option two) because wether you believe god just got the ball rolling all the way up to we are just a figment of god's imagination or the traditional six day building frenzy, whichever of those options you choose it is a theological diferentiation of a larger choice that the universe has been created and is ultimately artificial. How people choose to see their god and his role (however large that role is) in the universe I would leave up to an individual's personal beliefs.
