How many early Christians?

by Jahna 9 Replies latest jw friends

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  Jahna

  I was wondering for about a week or so, if anyone has done any research on the number of early Christians? Here is why.
  
  Last week I looked up the number of anointed still on Earth and in 1935 there were 52 465. Using that number you have to assume that about 91 500 slots are left open for early Christians, who the WT says were all anointed, and any others who still need to be found in the past, and or future.
  
  If we can add up all of the numbers some how it would either be more, or less then the magic 144 000. What that number honestly is, I imagine would be quite telling about the doctrine regarding this magic 144 000.
  
  I also have to wonder, when exactly the cut of period for early anointing of Christians happened.
  
  Jahna
• 

  blondie

  Of course, the WTS will say not all of them were TRUE or REAL or GENUINE Christians.

  ***

  w72 7/1 pp. 415-416 Questions from Readers ***

  Questions

  from Readers

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  Large numbers of Christians are said to have been put to death during the Roman persecution in the first few centuries of the Common Era. How, then, is it possible for thousands in this century to have been called to become part of the body of Christ composed of only 144,000 persons?—U.S.A.

  There are historical indications that many Christians were bitterly persecuted, even killed, in the first few centuries. However, it should be remembered that, in itself, a martyr’s death did not give a person merit before Jehovah God nor did it guarantee membership in the heavenly kingdom. Many persons, even in recent times, have been willing to die for a cause, religious or otherwise. A person’s claiming to be a Christian and even dying for his belief does not in itself mean that he is an approved servant of Jehovah God. As the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "If I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all." (1 Cor. 13:3) It is not death, but faithfulness to the very death, that determines whether an individual will receive "the crown of life."—Rev. 2:10.

  Thus the fact that today there is still a remnant of the 144,000 on earth would show that down to this twentieth century fewer than 144,000 finished their earthly course in faithfulness.

  While some persons may be inclined to think that more persons must surely have been involved even as far back as the early centuries of the Common Era, actual proof to this effect is completely lacking. Today it is impossible even to establish how many persons were killed, much less the number of those who proved faithful to death. "We have practically but few facts to go upon," writes Frederick John Foakes-Jackson in the book History of Christianity in the Light of Modern Knowledge. He further states: "The testimony to the persecution by Nero is recorded by two Roman historians, Tacitus and Suetonius, both of whom were very young when it occurred, and wrote in mature life. There is no contemporary Christian document describing it, though it may be alluded to in the book of Revelation. . . . Tertullian at the end of the second century is our authority that Nero and Domitian, because they were the two worst emperors in the first centuries, persecuted the Christians." Early in the third century C.E., Origen (a Christian writer and teacher) observed: "There have been but a few now and again, easily counted, who have died for the Christian religion."

  Much that has been written about Christian martyrs is embellished by tradition and therefore unreliable. For example, the martyrdom of Polycarp of the second century C.E. is described in Fox’s Book of Martyrs as follows: "He was . . . bound to a stake, and the faggots with which he was surrounded set on fire, but when it became so hot that the soldiers were compelled to retire, he continued praying and singing praises to God for a long time. The flames raged with great violence, but still his body remained unconsumed, and shone like burnished gold. It is also said, that a grateful odour like that of myrrh, arose from the fire, which so much astonished the spectators, that many of them were by that means converted to Christianity. His executioners finding it impossible to put him to death by fire, thrust a spear into his side, from which the blood flowed in such a quantity, as to extinguish the flame. His body was then consumed to ashes, by order of the proconsul lest his followers should make it an object of adoration."

  Whatever the source of Fox’s information, manifestly little of this account is truly historical. Nevertheless, if the allusion to the adoration of the remains of Polycarp is to be viewed as indicating the existence of relic worship among professed Christians of the second century C.E., this would be additional evidence that many at that time were not faithful worshipers of Jehovah God. Christians were under command to "worship God," not relics. (Rev. 19:10) In fact, idolaters are among those specifically named in the Scriptures as unfit to inherit the Kingdom.—1 Cor. 6:9, 10.

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  w52 1/15 p. 62 Questions from Readers ***

  Questions

  from Readers

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  According to the article "Hated for His Name" in the September 1, 1951, Watchtower, hundreds of thousands of Christians died in the "ten persecutions" starting in Nero’s time, 144,000 dying in Egypt alone during one of the persecutions. How can this be harmonized with the Scriptural limitation of 144,000 placed on the number being in Christ’s body, and which position was the only one open to Christians during those centuries?—J.A., Dominican Republic.

  The article did not class with any finality the individuals that died during these persecutions, but spoke of the results in a general way. Note that a key qualification was made in the case referred to in the question: "In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works." The victims are identified as "professed Christians", not Christians in fact. Many of those persons might have been caught in the wave of persecution, but may never have actually preached the truth or followed in Jesus’ footsteps, being only professed Christians. They knew the world they lived in was rotten and they were listening to the message of the Christians and willing to die for it even though not in line for the high calling in Christ Jesus. Many professed Christians today might be willing to die for their faith, but still not be Jesus’ footstep followers and meeting the Scriptural requirements for such.
• 

  Leolaia

  It's pretty disguisting that hundreds of thousands of Christians who suffered torture and martyrdom to keep their integrity and who died for their faith will be denied heaven beause they believed "false teachings" and thus were not real Christians, while thousands of JWs living in the 1920s who also believed in admittedly "false teachings" (like the parousia starting in 1874, that 1925 will bring the restoration of the earth, and all the other teachings the Society has abandoned) but never had a chance to prove their beliefs under pain of death, will get a free pass.
• 

  upside/down

  I've never understood the Dub obsession with "position"... so not Christ-like.

  u/d (of the just wants to be left alone class)
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  Jahna

  Thanks Blondie that was very helpful information.
  
  So what the WT is saying is maybe some may not have been footstep followers, and maybe some may have not preached and maybe some were not actual Christians. Sounds like a lot of assumptions to me. MAYBE they have it wrong but won’t admit it.
  
  In other words there is historical evidence that does put their doctrine up for scrutiny and said historical records can tear apart their nice little specialized group. I read over the 1951 Watchtower now that I got my cd to work again and it stated in 95 CE alone some 40 000 Christians suffered martyrdom. One could suspect that in 95 CE the vast majority were “True” (tm) Christians, we don’t even know how many more were put to death in the years before.
  
  Remember we only have about 91 500 to play with according to the 1935 numbers of partakers.
  
  In the year 300 CE we have the numbers you quoted about 844 000 early Christians, by simple math alone the WT is trying to say that so few “True” (tm) Christians actually existed (remember these are only the figure of the dead not the actual representation of all who existed during these times) one has to wonder why even mention this history of Christianity, the WT’s claim is that they don’t even represent “True” (tm) Christianity at all! Though interestingly the article goes on to mention that in about 300 CE Christians stood apart from the world, refused military service ect which isn’t so far off the mark of “True” tm Christians. In fact you can use the WT’s own history as proof of this.
  
  According to Dec 15 1997 WT, on the great apostasy it says:
  
  This great apostasy began after the death of the apostles. (Acts 20:29, 30) Following the so-called conversion of Constantine in the fourth century, vast numbers of pagans flocked to the form of Christianity that then prevailed. With what result? The book Early Christianity and Paganism states: “The comparatively little body of really earnest believers was lost in the great multitude of professed Christians.”
  
  
  All in all history puts serious doubts on their doctrine and magic numbers. Even by their own words the numbers of “True” (tm) Christians are more then likely higher in 300 CE then they would like to have us believe, the WT claims much of the apostasy actually happened in and around the time of Constantine, which was 400 CE. A hundred years after the 844 000 were persecuted.
  
  Jahna
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  RevFrank

  Let's get this straight and in the open, okay?

  in the article , w52 1/15 p. 62 Questions from Readers , about being hated for His name all Witnesses being persecuted because Jehovah God..........meaning not Jesus Christ as stated in Matthew 5.

  Christ said you'll be hated for My name sake in Matthew........that is only, if you believe that Christ is Jehovah God.

  All of the Jehovah Witnesses denie that Jesus is not God.....therefore, in my opinion, are being persecuted for Jehovah not Christ.....therefore they are being persecuted for the wrong being. Christ clearly stated that we will be persecuted for His name sake not Jehovah.

  PEACE
• 

  Seeker4

  Jahna,

  You've hit on something that I feel is very important, and absolutely one of the weakest JW teachings, just full of holes. In fact, the WTS's own figures show that there had to be less than 95,000 true, anointed Christians from the time of Pentecost. Acts 4 says 5000 became believers right arouund that time, so that drops the number immediately to 90,000, and Acts 6:1 says that after that the number of believers was multiplying rapidly - so that 90,000 figure is going down fast,and we're just days into a 1902-year-long period when every true Christian, according to the JWs, was of the anointed - and this is prior to the Gentiles being brought into the Christian Congregation of anointed ones!

  I don't remember the source, but I read a few years ago that during the 1st century, prior to what the Witnesses feel was the 'great apostasy,' hundreds of thousands of people were martyred for being Christian. As they themselves quote in that Question to Readers, 144,000 were killed at just one event! Say, conservatively, that 400,000 people were martyred, and give th WTS a lot of leeway there and allow that only 1 in 4 was a true Christian and not baptized and anointed. That still comes up with a figure well over the 90,000 that WTS figures and the Acts account - and we're only dealing with the number that were killed for their faith, for crying out loud, and not with the number of anointed believers who were never martyed, which is likely to be a much larger figure. There were Christian congregations filled with anointed ones spread all over the Middle East, Europe and North Africa during the first century - and there simply had to be tens of thousands of members.

  Now, add to that the JW teaching that there has always been a "faithful and discreet slave class" on earth since 33CE - and all of those would have to be anointed. The WTS teaches that many of these were in organized groups like the Albigensians and a few others I can't remember, and you see that there are huge problems with the teaching that there were only 144,000 true Christians on earth from 33 CE to 1935 CE. Realizing that was a serious factor in my leaving the Witnesses. They have to create totally incredible scenarios for their figures to make any sense. The 144,000 teaching is just impossible.

  Thanks for bringing this up!

  S4
• 

  eyeslice

  I agree that to dismiss those who gave their lives as 'professed Christians" is an insult.
  
  If I didn't want people to celebrate my birthday and thought I was part of a trinty - I might not be total comfortable with it. But if then they were prepared to die for their belief in me, I would feel that these were sincere and good people. I am certain that God feels the same way.
  
  Eyeslice
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  greendawn

  How can any JW be so naive so as to believe that in 1900 years there weren't more than 144 000 genuine christians.
  
  It's also really cheeky how they try to put down the dignity of those early Christians to prove their silly point that God had to wait until the 20th century to fill up that number with JWS.
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  LouBelle

  But then Rev if Christ & Jehovah are one & the same then surely they were being persecuted for his name anyways...??? (still new at this Jesus is God)