by dunsscot 62 Replies latest jw friends
Dear good people of J-W.com,
I am sitting in my office working on a problem and I need your help. Do you think that these sentences are true?
1) H20 is water
2) Water is H20.
These questions are neither designed to trap or trick anyone on J-W.com. I'm deadly serious here. Any help you could give me would be much appreciated. Duns is at a logical impasse.
Duns the Scot
Would it not be clearer to write "the chemical description of a water molecure is H20"? (with proper subscripting, of course)
You also may want to check with former President Clinton regarding the use of "is" in that sentence.
Duns,
I think maybe 2 is true, but 1 might not necessarily be true. H2O could also be solid (ice, snow) or a gas form. True, it is still technically water, but I'm not sure in what sense the word "water" is being used here.
rem
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
..........Bertrand Russell
Howdy,
Duns is at a logical impasse.- Duns the Scot
Most of us who have dealt with Logical the Poster, feel we are an impasse with him sooner or later.
Guess you're a Sooner.
waiting
Dear ChuckD and rem,
Chuck: You have actually touched on a problematic feature of these two propositions (statements that express theoretical identifications) that has bugged me ever since I heard these statements of identification given as examples in lectures. First, to say THAT water is H20 does not seem adequate. I like your proposition much better. Secondly, the word "is" really does make a difference in this case as well as the taxonomic locus of the subject term(s). Thanks for your help.
rem: I think I might also agree with your analysis, mutatis mutandis et ceteris paribus. I say "might" because necessity is a tricky demon. You further make a nice point about water. I'll consider that issue too.
This problem actually stems from Saul Kripke's work _Naming and Necessity_. When delineating his concept of rigid designation (i.e., if a proposition is true, it is true in all possible worlds or if Hesperus is Phosphorus and Phosphorus is Hesperus, then H is P and P is H in all possible worlds or all counterfactual situations).
Here is part of what Kripke notes in _Necessity_. His argument is complex, so I suggest you consult his book for the entire notion he is setting forth. But on page 128, he writes:
"Let's consider how this applies to the types of identity statements expressing scientific discoveries that I talked about before--say, that water IS H20. We identified water originally by its characteristic feel, appearance and perhaps taste, (though the taste may usually be due to the impurities). If there were a substance, even actually, which had a completely different atomic structure from that of water, but resembled water in these respects, would we say that some water wasn't H20? I think not. . . If there had been a substance, which was fool's water, it would then be fool's water and not water.
Duns the Scot
Duns,
Are you losing it? Even though we have our disagreements, I don't want to see you unravel. Hang in there buddy. Life is good.
:Duns,
Are you losing it? Even though we have our disagreements, I don't want to see you unravel. Hang in there buddy. Life is good.:
I'm doing well, larc. Just sitting here contemplating statements that express theoretical identification and what-not. Don't worry, my friend, the Doctor knows that life is good.
Doc "poculum hausit" Scot
Duns,
You are not a Doctor. You have two years in on your education. You have a blocked e mail and you gave me a false 800 number, you are not as good as you claim to be. You have never written a peer reviewed paper in your field. You can not prove me wrong, because any identification of yourself here would cause you to fryed at the hands of the Church elders.
Have a nice life in the sad world you live in.
Dear larc,
:Duns,
You are not a Doctor. You have two years in on your education.:
Duns IS a Doctor, plain and simple. The man behind Duns is not. But you have no way of knowing how close I am to my doctorate, do you? How therefore can you speak with such cocksureness?
:You have a blocked e mail and you gave me a false 800 number, you are not as good as you claim to be.:
I have my email blocked to avoid being flooded with mail of all kinds (hate and otherwise). The 800 number I gave you was not false per se: I was joking, larc. I guess I'll have to use emoticons next time for you REAL Doctors, or spell it out fer ya!
:You have never written a peer reviewed paper in your field. You can not prove me wrong, because any identification of yourself here would cause you to fryed at the hands of the Church elders.:
All I can say is that you have no idea about that of which you speak. True, I do not care to manifest my identity. But it has nothing to do with the elders. I'm more concerned about some "nuts" I've observed on boards like these. Of course there are a number of nice folks here. But there are also some people, who love to find out your identity, so that they can harrass you in some way or send you apostate mail and what-not. I've had some bad experiences in dealing with some of my former brethren.
:Have a nice life in the sad world you live in.:
I'm happier than I've ever been in my life, brother larc. You see, life is what you make it. While many people whine about the JW routine, I just do it. Moreover, I also spend time studying foreign languages and philosophy as well as discoursing with you fine folks and downing a beer or two. So my "world" is full of gaiety and conviviality. I love life!
Yours,
Duns
larc,
I forgot to mention that when I was an undergraduate, some of my professors told me I was so well versed in philosophy, theology, and other fields that they should award me a doctorate after I completed my four year undergrad education. Before I even graduated, schools were already asking me to come and teach at their institutions as soon as I obtained my graduate degree. So while I may not be a Doctor YET, I'm almost there. But even before I was almost there, people recognized my awesome potential and were amazed at the wealth of knowledge I possessed as well as my prodigious mind. So there! :-)
Humbly yours,
Duns
