Creationism - is purely a myth that is untestable - maybe not!

by Qcmbr 43 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    There are fossils showing that various forms of life arose in a sequence over a vast period of time. This is evolution as a fact, so termed because rather than just being 'the same but different' with no 'pattern' or 'direction' of development, the sequence shows development from 'simple' forms to 'complex' forms.

    It is also a fact that objects fall at 9.8 m/s/s at sea level on Earth. Newtonian physics explains how objects fall like this.

    Evolutionary theory seeks to explain how the fact of how life forms developed from 'simple' to 'complex'.

    However, I'd like it if you'd actually respond to my post, for example, on point 1, are you now clear on evolution as a fact (fossil record) and evolution as a theory (Darwinism) being analogous to G at sea level (a fact) and Newton's Law Fg= G m1m2/r squared (a theory)?

    Though I don't intend on getting into a protracted discussion here, I would like state that I have a problem with this analogy.

    That "objects fall at 9.8 m/s/s at sea level on Earth" is something that is subject to direct observation, and repeatable experimentation - however the formation of the fossil record took place in the unobserved, unrepeatable past. Thus, any claim as to how it came about (ie: "macroevolution", "progressive creation", etc.) was also not subject to direct observation. Therefore they are not "analogous".

    In fact, the same fossil record is interpreted differently by different persons.

    • Evolutionists believe that it reflects a sequence of geological ages that they believe shows "that various forms of life arose [by evolution] in a sequence over a vast period of time", etc.
    • Progressive creationists accept generally a similar sequence (however without evolution as its cause).
    • Young Earth creationists believe that much of the fossil record was laid out in a global flood, and immediate post flood catastrophies. Some accept a geological column type "sequence" (albeit compressed to with a much shorter flood period of time), Others (given the fact that most geologic systems are not ussually found in a single locality and other problems) question the necessity of even accepting this. Even among those who accept a geological column type sequence the same claimed fossil patterns are interpreted as the result of different causes (see for example the charts at the end of the following arcticle http://www.grisda.org/origins/23068.htm )
  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    Thankfully, since harnessing the power of restriction enzymes and other DNA analysis techniques we can have direct observable information that lends more support to evolution.

    They want to dispute what the pattern in the fossil record really indicates, but I haven't yet heard one decent rebuttal to the line of evidence explained in SNG's post on endogenous retroviruses.

    The specific Long Terminal Repeats and their location in genomes is best explained by linked genetic heritages. (i.e. descent with modification) And a pattern of simple to complex, analogous to the fossil record, can be directly inferred from that.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Abbadon - since you take the considerable time to respond to my posts -

    You said:
    However, I'd like it if you'd actually respond to my post, for example, on point 1, are you now clear on evolution as a fact (fossil record) and evolution as a theory (Darwinism) being analogous to G at sea level (a fact) and Newton's Law Fg= G m1m2/r squared (a theory)?

    I say:
    Sometimes I don't have the answers to your points. In this particular case I see fossils as the fact. I see micro evolution (adaptation) as a fact. I don't see macro evolution as a fact. However, to be even, I don't see the ark or a seven literal days of creation as a fact either.

    As for gravity I was trying to suggest an example of a theory that explained the observed facts but was in itself superceded (there is a deeper level of laws that are still being discovered) by further knowledge. I wasn't trying to define what a fact is. Although I am an argumentative a$$hole sometimes and I often do sound arrogant I assure you that I am a whole lot more amenable and open minded than often appears on the message board. It is often difficult to write clearly what I mean when I cannot use inflection, body language and the fact that I often agree with points made against what I'm saying - I normally get sidetracked however, with comments that refer to me in a condescending way. I am also not a professional writer and I get a little frustrated when people look at my words for holes as opposed to giving the benefit of the doubt - I think we all have experience of seeing someone respond to our post and wanting to shout at the pc screen 'that's not what I meant at all!'

    I want truth plain and simple but just because someone else says it so doesn't mean I have to accept it - I learnt that from church:) It also doesn't mean that once I find something I think is true I'm not willing to look at all the angles. I get a little hurt when people say I believe such and such just because I'm 'in a cult.' I've spent hours and hours soul searching with the most difficult questions I can find and in the end I got answers that satisfied me - I'm still highly puzzled by some things however the whole creation thing is one and that's why I'd like a chnace to experiment on creationist ideas - I'd have loved to try experiments at school etc.. but of course we just cut frogs up.

    I read, I see and my intellect doesn't come to the same conclusion from the observed facts that some other people come to - that's individuality I guess.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Qcmbr

    Sometimes I don't have the answers to your points.

    I know. What you have to avoid is the situations where you state 'X', and I or others show you that 'X' is obviously not so, and you then keep on beliving 'X', or basing other beliefs on 'X', despite knowing at some level that 'X' is false. This is cognitive dissonance, and IF (note capitals) you display it, it is one of the signs you are in a cult... whether you agree with it or not.

    I read, I see and my intellect doesn't come to the same conclusion from the observed facts that some other people come to - that's individuality I guess.

    In some cases, yes. But flat-earthers cannot excuse their claim that the Earth is flat as 'individuality'. Your choice of car colour is individuality, for example. There's not a 'right' or a 'wrong' colour. But as far as the shape of this planet goes, there is a correct answer.

    Likewise with beliefs regarding the development of life, there is only one correct answer.

    Intellect is not the question here; one can have a fine mind but simply not be acquainted with a subject and thus reach erroneous conclusions.

    As your questions show, I think you really need to extend your knowledge of evolutionary science before you can confidently make pronouncements.

    To exclude macro-evolution when you make mistakes in your statement of evolutionary theory, or list as signs a Cretaionist would expectt things that are not observed (and thus serve the reverse purpose, without realising you are doing this I think), is a little hasty.

    It's like someone excluding the Treaty of Versailles as a contributory cause of WWII because they haven't studied the subject enough.

    If someone could make a convincing argument the Treaty of Versailles was not a contributory factor, showing a full and detailed knowledge of the subject, well, okay.

    But if someone just said it, and at the same time made elementary errors in statements about WWII, you wouldn't give their opinion much weight.

    hooberus

    Though I don't intend on getting into a protracted discussion here, I would like state that I have a problem with this analogy.

    That "objects fall at 9.8 m/s/s at sea level on Earth" is something that is subject to direct observation,

    Like the fact there are fossils is subject to direct observation, and the fact that the oldest fissils are typically the simplest fossils is subject to direct observation...

    however the formation of the fossil record took place in the unobserved, unrepeatable past. Thus, any claim as to how it came about (ie: "macroevolution", "progressive creation", etc.) was also not subject to direct observation.

    Which is why it is a theory, just as Fg= G m1m2/r squared is a theory

    Therefore they are not "analogous".

    I disagree, for the reasons illustrated, and note that you still have difficulty distinguishing between the fact of the fossil record and the theories as to its development.

    • Progressive creationists accept generally a similar sequence (however without evolution as its cause).

    However, they are unable to explain how their 'mechanism for change' itself developed, so have no complete theory of the development of life, but rather a contradictory theory that insists complexity requires intelligent design yet has to insist the complexity of the intelligent designer arose without cause. See my first paragraph to Qcmbr.

    • Young Earth creationists believe that much of the fossil record was laid out in a global flood, and immediate post flood catastrophies.

    Unfortunately there is no evidence for a Global Flood, and indeed, there is direct evidence indicating the Biblical accounts could not be a literal description of a Global Flood. See my first paragraph to Qcmbr.

    I mean, look, from the link you gave;

    The "Cambrian Explosion" may be readily explained as the result of the burial of the sea floor in the early stages of the biblical flood. 59

    This ignores;

    1. Relaible dating techniques date the Cabrian Explosion to hundred of millions of years prior to any possible date for a Biblical Flood
    2. Existing buildings and trees (with relaible seeding/building dates) contradict any possible date for a Biblical Flood.

    ... unless of course on rejects Biblical dating as totally unrelaible, and the Flood account as utterly metaphorical as regards its extent, in which case it ALSO fails to 'explain' the Cambrian Explosion.

    Of course, such superb 'ignoring' of facts to re-state a theory (Global Flood) that has already been disproved could be a good example of why such pseudo-scientific papers do not get published in mainstream science magazines.

    The horse is dead hooberus, stop flogging it. Whilst OECism and IDism give themselves enough wriggle-room to not be falsified, YECism is falsifiable, unless one is willing to ignore inconvenient facts, in which case one is not building a very stong or supportable opinion.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit