White Blood Cells, Red Blood Cells both pass between mother and baby.

by ithinkisee 14 Replies latest watchtower medical

  • ithinkisee
    ithinkisee

    The Society claims that certain components of blood will not violate conscience because they already pass naturally between mother and fetus. (funny how THEY tell me what violates my conscience, but that is another story) Anyways, here is their reasoning:

    Watchtower of June 1, 1990, pages 30 & 31 "It is significant that the blood system of a pregnant woman is separate from that of the fetus in her womb; their blood types are often different. The mother does not pass her blood into the fetus. Formed elements (cells) from the mother's blood do not cross the placental barrier into the fetus' blood, nor does the plasma as such. In fact, if by some injury the mother's and the fetus' blood mingle, health problems can later develop (Rh or ABO incompatibility). However, some substances from the plasma cross into the fetus' circulation. Do plasma proteins, such as immune globulin and albumin? Yes, some do.

    A pregnant woman has an active mechanism by which some immune globulin moves from the mother's blood to the fetus'. Because this natural movement of antibodies into the fetus occurs in all pregnancies, babies are born with a degree of normal protective immunity to certain infections.

    It is similar with albumin, which doctors may prescribe as a treatment for shock or certain other conditions. Researchers have proved that albumin from the plasma is also transported, though less efficiently, across the placenta from a mother into her fetus.

    That some protein fractions from the plasma do move naturally into the blood system of another individual (the fetus) may be another consideration when a Christian is deciding whether he will accept immune globulin, albumin, or similar injections of plasma fractions. One person may feel that he in good conscience can; another may conclude that he cannot. Each must resolve the matter personally before God."

    What they seem to have missed is that red blood cells ALSO pass between mother and baby:

    Simpson JL; Elias S., JAMA 1993 Nov. 17;270(19):2357-61
    "Thus fetal DNA sequences indeed exist in maternal blood. Among the various candidate cells, the most promising appear to be fetal nucleated red blood cells. We isolated nucleated red blood cells on the basis of flow-sorting for the transferring receptor and glycophorin-A"

    Isolating Fetal Cells in Maternal Circulation For Prenatal Diagnosis by Joe Leigh Simpson and Sherman Elias; Prenatal Diagnosis, Vol. 14: 1229-1242 (1994)
    "Fetal cells unequivocally exist in and can be isolated from maternal blood. Erythroblasts (immature red blood cells), trophoblasts, granulocytes and lymphocytes (white blood cells) have all been isolated by various density gradient and flow sorting techniques."

    Early Human Development 47 Suppl. (1996) S73-S77
    (this is a paraphrase of the article, not a quote)
    Fetal cells have been detected in the mother's circulation as early as four weeks and five days after conception, and are present during all three trimesters of pregnancy; gradually increasing as gestation progresses. Also of great significance is the fact that the majority of cord blood samples reveal that the mother's cell's are also present in fetal circulation. So we have a dual exchange of blood components more than 50% of the time.

    =========
    There is also abundant evidence on WHITE BLOOD CELLS also passing between mother and baby in breast milk. See the following references:

    How Breastmilk Protects Newborns
    Scientific American December 1995 Vol. 273 No. 6 Page 76

    By Jack Newman, MD, FRCPC
    http://www.breastfeedingonline.com/29.html (reprinted on Breastfeeding site)
    As is true of defensive molecules, immune cells are abundant in human milk. They consist of white blood cells, or leukocytes, that fight infection themselves and activate other defense mechanisms. The most impressive amount is found in colostrum. Most of the cells are neutrophils, a type of phagocyte that normally circulates in the bloodstream. Some evidence suggests that neutrophils continue to act as phagocytes in the infant's gut. Yet they are less aggressive than blood neutrophils and virtually disappear from breast milk six weeks after birth. So perhaps they serve some other function, such as protecting the breast from infection.

    Mother's Milk: precious protection
    Healthy Options, August 2003, pg 9-11
    By Susan Claridge

    http://www.archetypeltd.co.nz/Mothers_milk.htm (reprint)
    Immune cells, white blood cells, or leukocytes, that fight infection themselves and activate other defence mechanisms, are abundant in human milk particularly in colostrum1 , 7 . In order of abundance these cells are neutrophils, macrophages and lymphocytes. Macrophages are cells that kill bacteria, fungi, and viruses. Macrophages also manufacture lysozyme, an enzyme that destroys bacteria by disrupting their cell walls 1 , 5 . Lymphocytes comprise B lymphocytes, which give rise to antibodies, and T lymphocytes, which kill infected cells directly or send out chemical messages that mobilise still other components of the immune system1 ,7 . Milk lymphocytes also manufacture several chemicals-including gamma-interferon, migration inhibition factor and monocyte chemotactic factor that can strengthen an infant's own immune response1 .

    leu?ko?cyte also leu?co?cyte
    n.
    See white blood cell.(below)

    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
    ISBN: 0395825172
    Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
    Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

    ===

    white blood celln. Abbr. WBC
    Any of various blood cells that have a nucleus and cytoplasm, separate into a thin white layer when whole blood is centrifuged, and help protect the body from infection and disease. White blood cells include neutrophils, eosinophils, basophils, lymphocytes, and monocytes. Also called leukocyte, white cell, white corpuscle.

    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
    ISBN: 0395825172
    Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
    Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

    These references have been pulled from various ex-JW-sites and stuff. I just now put them together for my own upcoming confrontations and thought I would give back to the "community".

    Enjoy.

    -ithinkisee

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    Also,

    Whole blood is transferred between twin babies in a monochorionic pregnancy. That is a pregnancy where the twins share one monochorionic sac. Twins can share one placenta and have separate sacs or share a sac. Where they share a sac blood vessels connect the two so that the blood can flow freely between them. In fact, the more blood that flows between them the less likely their chance of developing TTS (twin to twin transfusion syndrome). This is where one twin received greater blood flow that the other. The low blood flow twin can be very very sick and underdeveloped.

    http://www.tttsfoundation.org/

    http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/twins.htm

    Thanks for posting your information. I've not seen information that stated red blood cells cross the placental barrier before.

    Also, if you review the WTS cd rom you will find 0 mentions of white blood cells being in mother's milk. The closest they come to discussing it is saying that the milk contains disease fighitng agents.

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Interesting. My wife bought some colostrum capsules as a natural immune support supplement and I now realize that it contains leukocytes (WBCs). But then again any meat we eat probably contains plenty of RBCs and WBCs too.

  • FairMind
    FairMind

    Since the whole argument regarding the acceptability of transfusing blood fractions is based on the passing of fractions between mother and fetus, will we see "new light" regarding whole blood now?

  • Check_Your_Premises
    Check_Your_Premises

    Hey MJ,

    I was considering a full frontal on the blood issue, since I think it simply has to be addressed, even if my wife thinks it is "just what the Bible says"

    Do you have a pretty comprehensive list of refutations to the main talking points?

    CYP

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    CYP,

    Check out the best of section.

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Also, http://www.ajwrb.org

    Check out the questions for JWs section: http://www.ajwrb.org/misc/question.shtml

    A key point is that they have clarified that transfused hemoglobin (a recent technological breakthrough), being a "minor fraction of blood", is a matter of conscience. Hemoglobin is a red cell w/o the cell wall, I've read, whereas red cells themselves are taboo. If there is one part of the blood that "counts" for keeping you alive, it's the hemoglobin. It's the main point of the blood! Hemoglobin is what carries the oxygen from the lungs to the rest of the body, and most importantly, the brain. If blood represents life, and if one could distill this "life" down to it's purest form by removing "minor" blood portions, you'd be left with hemoglobin! It carries the "breath" which in JW terms is the Spirit! How could they accept hemoglobin and reject something like platelets (0.2% of blood)? Because God's law depends on some arbitrary categorization of blood's composition found in some EMT manual?

    there you've gotten me started.

  • troubled mind
    troubled mind

    Excellant posts...........Thank you ,I'll keep checking back. .........

  • Scully
    Scully
    My wife bought some colostrum capsules as a natural immune support supplement

    I'd heard of these... what research has been done to support the practice of ingesting colostrum by otherwise healthy adults? Is it human or animal source colostrum? (Apologies for derailing the thread... carry on... )

  • TD
    TD
    Since the whole argument regarding the acceptability of transfusing blood fractions is based on the passing of fractions between mother and fetus, will we see "new light" regarding whole blood now?

    That "New Light" actually came in the year 2000 when the JW's simply co-opted blood banking terminology as their "Litmus Test." "Primary components" (Erythrocytes, Leukocytes, Thrombocytes and Whole Plasma) are forbidden. Any fraction of a "Primary component" is allowed regardless of whether it normally crosses the syncytial membrane or not.

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