by mormon 4 life 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Welcome M4L!
Nice to have another Mormon around. There's at least one other, Qcmbr.
I haven't looked into Mormon teachings to any great extent, so I'm not in a position to call it a cult. Others have used that term, but I have no info.
Have a good stay!
Dave
Welcome aboard mormon, good to meet you. I'm sure you will see reflections of mormon life in some of our exjw experiences, hope you enjoy yourself and your life.
Brummie
Hello,
you should try www.exmormon.org for another take on mormonism.
also, try freedomofmind.com a website by a leading cult expert to get the scoop on why he thinks mormons are a cult.
Love ya too!
Kwin - wondering wtf is going on
mormon4life,
Well now, I used to be a JW, but converted to Mormon, which ripped my family apart. But I do not blame the Mormon Church for that, for the most part. (Except that, I wonder what my life would have ended up like if I had never met the Mormons.) The irony is, my ex-wife, who is JW to this day, was the one who first introduced me to a certain Mormon, with whom I had the discussions, which ultimately led me to my conversion to Mormonism.
My "beef" is not with either the JW's or the Mormons as individuals. Most of them I believe are sincere and well-meaning people, but just blinded or deceived. My fight is with Mormon and JW Officialdom, the Leadership, the System, the Empire, and their power and wealth that are their tools of control and manipulation, and deceptive propaganda that is foisted upon the unsuspecting public. I have a million reasons for saying this, both with respect to Mormons and JW's
When I became Mormon, I believed that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, the Book of Mormon was the Word of God, and the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price were all Revelations from God by the hands of Prophets, Seers and Revelators, starting with Joseph Smith, then Brigham Young, and then on down to the Presidents of the Church to "this day" (i.e. until I left the Church).
But then later, much later, I discovered a whole pile of dicey and incriminating stuff about Joseph Smith and Brigham Young that are not so easily dismissed as you might think, once you deal with all the facts.
To start with, there are two different accounts of the First Vision, which deal with God the Father and Jesus Christ visiting the young man Joseph Smith. The second account significantly alters the essence of what was contained in the first account, and this calls into question the validity of the experience in the first place.
There is the whole matter of the writing of the Book of Mormon, questions of its historicity and validity of doctrines, and claims that the "Indians" are of the lost tribes of Israel (referred to as Lamanites in the B of M), serious questions of B of M geography, and some pretty indicting plagiarisms from sources outside the B of M that were readily available at the time and location of Joseph Smith, and the significant edited changes to the Book of Mormon over time from the original version. (Why would anything have to be changed in the Book of Mormon if it was translated thru revelation, by the power of God, by the authority of the Priesthood and thru the instrument of the Urim and Thummim.)
Then there is the fiasco surrounding the Book of Abraham and the discovered sen-sen fragment, the falsifying of the facsimiles to make it fit the story that this document contains an account written by Joseph's own hand while he was in Egypt. Why were each of the hieroglyphic characters contained within the sen-sen fragment (referred to as "Book of Breathings")(which was part of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, a pagan funerary document) found to be copied into a scribbler on the left margin of the page, each one on a different line, and then to the right of each character were whole verses from the Book of Abraham, from Abraham 1:1 down to Abraham 2:4 (or something like that, it's been a long time since I went thru all this). This is totally nonsensical. Nobody can believe that one single Egyptial hieroglyphic or hieratic character could be translated into entire verses of the Book of Abraham- with whole sentences, nouns, verbs, conjunctions, pronouns, adjective, adverbs, etc. The current attempts to defend this whole thing are laughable, and we could debate it at length.
Then there are the false and failed prophecies of the Church as contained within the Doctrine & Covenants, which are very serious when you get into it in detail. How about the fact that Joseph Smith's own wife, Emma, possessed a letter in J.S. own handwriting that their son was to be his successor in the Church, and yet Brigham Young took over as head of the Church from that secret meeting in the woods.
Then there are a host of questions about Church History, with evidences of re-writing of that history to make the Church look good. For example, there's the Mountain Meadows massacre and the Donner party and their cannibalism practices during that harsh winter in Colorado. Those ones make me sick to my stomache! I'm also reminded of the practice of Blood Atonement and the secret Danites, cronies of Brigham Young, who slit the throats of fellow members who were guilty of the sin of adultery, which was done to atone for their sins with their own blood, because the Blood of Jesus Christ was insufficient to atone for their sins. This whole thing is lied about and covered up and white-washed to this day, and I do not say this lightly.
The whole fiasco over Polygamy, the practise of it in spite of the laws of the land, and then covering it up and lieing and denying that they did it. How about Brigham Young and his 27 wives, another case where they lie and deny and cover up the facts.
The Adam-God doctrine, or the teaching that "Adam is God the Father and the Father of Jesus Christ" doctrine taught by Brigham Young- which is falsely rationalized and the whole true story of this that is not contained within church books. Forget all that talk about Adam being the Patriarch of the human race, and that we will all become Gods in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, and "Adam, our God and Father, is the only God with whom we have to do." To get to the bottom of this one, you have to search the diaries of Church Members who had impeccable reputations within the Church to their dieing day, were high up in the Church, and yet wrote simply and plainly that in every literal sense, this is exactly what Brigham Young taught, and not the version that is being peddled in the church books of today.
And man, we could get into some very interesting discussions about the Mormon temples, and the Masonic Order of which Joseph Smith was a member, and the changes made to the wording of the Endowment Ceremony that are ongoing (I have personally seen some of them).
And on and on and on.
What is so damning about all this, is the fact that potential Church converts are not privy to all this information, from which they could make an informed decision before joining the Church. I had to find out the hard way, when it was far too late. The conquences to my wife and 3 children were devastating, although I would probably have left the JW's down the road anyway, even if I had never met the Mormons in the first place. But as it turned out, Mormonism was the catalyst that ripped out family in two. I can forgive, but I will not forget.
By the way, I love ya too!
Rod P.
God decided humans are too dumb to read the bible and decide for themselves what it means so He gave us the WatchTower magazines and the Book of Mormon so we wouldn't end up spiritually hurting ourselves.
Rod P...
I read your posting with interest, however, as I am a history buff, I'd like to point out some mistakes in your "facts":
For example, there's the Mountain Meadows massacre and the Donner party and their cannibalism practices during that harsh winter in Colorado.
The Mountain Meadows massacre in the late 1850's was more of a local issue (southern utah) rather than a Morman Church issue. While mormans were involved (heck, almost 100% of the territory was morman) there is no concrete evidence that points to the main Church in Salt Lake City as sanctioning it. Secondly, regarding the Donner party... that tragedy took place in Northern California, not Colorado and it was not a wagon train of mormans. However, the mormans did play a part in the rescue of the Donner party. There was a group of mormans who, after being released from the Army during the Mexican War, were traveling to Utah via Northern California. If I'm not mistaken, they were the first ones who came across the starving group and assisted them.
Double Edge,
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I had certain obligations having to do with my day-to-day work, so got side-tracked from this topic.
I stand corrected on the facts of the Donner Party. You are right, of course, that this tragedy took place in Northern California, the Sierra Nevada mountains. The year was 1846. The Donner party was not the Donner Party when it first headed west, but was part of a much larger emigrant train of covered wagons making a westward trek, many of whom were trying to get to California. This was the same time that Brigham Young and members of the Mormon Church were making their way to the Great Salt Lake basin, where Salt Lake City was ultimately established.
People of all ages and religious sects made the westward trek, trying to find new lives and prosperity. So not all were Mormons, by any means.What is little known is that a man named Thomas Rhoads, who was apparently a bodyguard of Joseph Smith, had two sons, Daniel and John Rhoads, who were on the wagon train with the Donner Party. The wagonmaster was the mayor of the town in Missouri that burned out and hung all the Mormons, so Daniel and John didn't want their identity known, for fear they might be killed. They later left the train and went over the mountains near Lake Tahoe, heading to Sutter's Fort. Later, word reached them that the Donner Party was stranded in the snow, and so they dried meat, packed as much provisions as they could, and they set out to rescue the Donner Party. Later, these two men were honoured in California for the good deed they did.
Were the Donner Party members Mormon? No, not as a group, but one family was or had been Mormon. Levinah Jackson Murphy converted to Mormonism in 1836, and she and her children lived in Nauvoo, Illinois (1841-1842), after which she returned to her home in Tennessee. It is thought that they may have been tring to rejoin the Church when they went West, but it is not certain that they considered themselves Mormon in 1846. As for the other members of the Donner Party, the Breens and Patrick Dolan were Roman Catholics, James Reed was raised Presbyterian, but seemed to attend the Methodist Church. Augustus Spitzer is thought to have been Jewish, Louis Keseberg was a Lutheran, but his wife Philippine was raised Catholic. George and Tamzene Donner may have been a "Disciples of Christ" since that's where they attended in Illinois.
In conclusion, the story of the Donner Party is not one that should reflect negatively on the Mormon Church, and for that reason I retract my inclusion of it in the list of problem areas I have with Mormonism. I have been out of the Mormon Church for over 25 years now, and my reaction to this whole story really started when I saw a documentary movie about the Donner Party on television about 6 years ago, and had the impression it was about people who were members of the Church, because of the Westward Trek which I had recollections of respecting Mormons travelling to California and Oregon from Utah. I therefore apologize to you, the readers of this post, and the Mormon Church for my error on this issue. All of the other issues, however, I had reached conclusions about while still an active member of the Church, and which, at the time, I intensely investigated both pro and con.
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Now, when it comes to the matter of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, that is quite a different matter. There's no way that I can agree with your notion that this was merely a "local issue" as opposed to a "Church issue".
On September 11, 1857 there were some 120 unarmed men, women and children (non-Mormon) who were murdered in cold blood by Mormons and Indians. I am referring to an article by Sandra Tanner, who was writing about "One of My Family's Best Kept Secrets", in which she quotes from the Salt Lake Tribune the following brief summary of the massacre:
"A California-bound wagon train of about 140 Arkansas emigrants led by John Baker and Alexander Fancher camped near the present-day southwestern Utah town of Enterprise in September 1857. Fears that the U.S Army was preparing to forcefully remove Brigham Young as Utah territorial governor and impose martial law were at their height. Spurred by inflammatory sermons of LDS leaders, a siege mentality focused Mormon resentment on the 'gentile' wagon train.
Early on Sept.7, a group of American Indians and local Mormon 'Indian Missionaries' attacked the encircled wagon train without warning....With their ammunition, food and water almost gone, the emigrants were persuaded by Mormon officials on the afternoon of Sept.11 to surrender their arms in exchange for a safe escort past the Indians to Cedar City...On a prearranged command, the rescuers turned upon the emigrants, joined by Indians who had been lying in wait. Estimates of the death toll include 14 Arkansas men shot in the head, 12 women and 35 youngsters clubbed or knifed to death, with 17 younger than age 8 surviving the double-cross.
Nine cowhands hired to drive cattle also were murdered, along with at least 35 other unknown victims. In all, 120 people, mostly women and children, were slain" (Salt Lake Tribune, March 14, 2000, p.A-4
Part of the motivation for the first attack on the wagon train seems to have been an effort to steal their cattle. The Baker-Fancher train was one of the wealthiest trains to come through Utah territory. Historian David Bigler writes"
"The Arkansas company was relatively affluent. Most of its wealth took the form of a large herd of cattle, estimated by various observers to number from three hundred to a thousand head, not including other animals, work oxen, horses, or mules...John W. Baker later placed the value of property his father took on the journey at 'the full sum of ten thousand dollars'. Besides animals, some thirty or forty wagons and equipment, members also carried varying amounts of cash..." (Forgotten Kingdom, p.160)
Evidently Brigham Young had promised all of the Fancher cattle to local Indian leaders:
"...Hamblin and some twelve Indian chiefs on September first met with Brigham Young and his most trusted interpreter, 49-year-old Dimick B. Huntington, at Great Salt Lake. Taking part in this pow-wow were Kanosh, the Mormon chief of the Pahvants; Ammon, half-brother of Walker, Tutsegabit, head chief of the Piedes, Youngwuds, another Piede chieftain, and other leaders of desert bands along the Santa Clara and Virgin Rivers.
Little was know of what they talked about until recently when it came to light that Huntington (apparently speaking for Young) told the chiefs that he 'gave them all the cattle that had gone to Cal[ifornia by] the south rout[e].' The gift 'made them open their eyes', he said. But 'you have told us not to steal,' the Indians replied. 'So I have,' Huntington said, 'but now they have come to fight us & you, for when they kill us they will kill you." The chiefs knew what cattle he was giving them. They belonged to the Baker-Fancher train." (Forgotten Kingdom, p.167-168)
While the first attack may have been primarily to obtain the cattle, the final attack, on Sept.11th seems to have been motivated by the Mormon secret oath to avenge the blood of their prophets. Harrison Pearce, my great-great-grandfather, was one who argued for wiping out the wagon train. Western historian Will Bagley recounts:
"After leaving the Fancher party, John Hawley arrived at the village of Washington to find Lee and the other leaders had sent their interpreters to incite the Paiutes to attack the emigrant camp. The town's military and religious authorities sought to inflame the passions of their followers. The first counselor in the local bishopric, Nauvoo Legion captain Harrison Pearce impressed Hawley as the most militant authority. In a public meeting, Pearce said he wished to 'see all the Gentyles strippt naked and lashed on their backs and have the Sun scorch them to death by inches.'
[The account goes on to recount some of the differing views, some who wanted the massacre to proceed, while another argued against it. One James Pearce apparently tried to spare one child.]
The "unhappy wife of Brigham Young" referred to ....is Ann Elize Webb Young, who wrote in her book, Wife #19, (1875, p.248) the following:
"To the honor of many of the men be it said, -the younger ones, especially,- they refused to join in this horrible work, and some of them made efforts to protect these helpless women from their fiend-like tormentors. I used often, while living in Payson, to see a man named Jim Pearce, whose face was deeply scarred by a bullet wound, made by his own father, while the brave young fellow was trying to assist a poor girl, who had appealed to him for succor."
The Mormon efforts to cover-up the details and white wash the massacre continues even today.
Whether or not Brigham Young directly orderd the massacre may never be known. However, he seemed to have no problem with the bloody deed after the fact. When Young visited the site a few years later Apostle Wilford Woodruff wrote in his diary:
"May 25 [1861] A very cold morning much ice on the creek. I wore my great coat & mittens. We visited the Mt.Meadows Monument not up at the burial place of 120 persons killed by Indians in 1857. The pile of stone was about twelve feet high but beginning to tumble down. A wooden cross is placed on top with the following words, Vengeance is mine and I will repay saith the Lord. Pres.Young said it should be Vengeance is mine and I have taken a little" (Mountain Meadows Massacre, p.182)
Twenty years after the massacre John D. Lee, one of the Mormon leaders in Southern Utah, was the only man convicted and executed by the US government for the crime. Lee was stripped of his church membership and his plural wives. One of the curious aftermath's of this terrible period was the reinstating of Lee's church membership in 1961.
The article goes on to describe the reinstatement procedures. A complete record is in the files of the Latter-day Saints Genealogical Society.
This raises the difficult question as to whether or not the LDS Church views the perpetrators of the massacre as committing "murder" or do they consider their acts "justified"? The Mormon scriptures, Doctrine and Covenants 42:18, declares: "...he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come." Also, Section 132:27 proclaims: "The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood,...after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant..." Since Lee had his temple blessing and marriages restored the LDS leaders must not consider him guilty of murder or shedding "innocent blood." [Section 132].
Pages have been written describing the LDS Church efforts to cover-up the details and suppress documents about this whole story. They have seized whole boxes of documents in the name of them being considered "sacred, private and confessional" in nature. The number of boxes are huge, and the collections quite large, which is a whole subject in and of itself.
The Mormon historian B.H.Roberts referred to the massacre of the Fancher train which Mormons and Indians committed at Mountain Meadows in 1857 as "the most lamentable episode in Utah history, and in the history of the church." (Comprehensive History of the Church, vo.4, p.139)
Brigham Young was actually indicted for murder by the US government for this incident. Unfortunately, the case against Brigham Young never came to trial. Apparently the US Supreme Court handed down a decision in an "Englebrecht" case which set aside all legal proceedings in Utah during the previous 18 months and declared null and void indictments found against nearly 149 persons, including Brigham Young himself.
My whole thing about this issue, is that this is more than just "a mere local issue (Southern Utah) rather than a Church issue". Sorry, Double Edge, I cannot agree with you on this one!
Rod P.
Hi, mormon. Welcome to the board!
My thoughts on LDS are not extremely positive, so I will leave them out of this thread, but I am happy to hear of another opposer of the Tower .
The JWs destroy lives, and families, and thank you for helping us to expose their lies.
tal
talesin,
If you check my profile, and "Topics" you will find that I have been very prolific of late.
There is so much more on my mind that will be revealed in the weeks and months ahead.
Regards,
Rod P.
