Nic:I don't take issue with your beliefs. They are yours, and hard won, at that. I do take issue wherever I perceive intolerance or denigration, however.
To that end you may need to break down and spell out for me your following reply:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/90447/1519289/post.ashx#1519289
This is what I said;"I think it's interesting that not many believers have responded to this topic. When I believed in God the only time I put myself in a position where I needed to defend him against say an evolutionist or an atheist was on the 'door to door' work and of course that was 99% magazine presentation.
Perhaps the believing mind simply 'sidesteps' the issue of having to prove it's beliefs when it knows it cannot really do so. I submit that there is no conclusive evidence for the existence of god."
This was not an attempt to denigrate anybody or else I would clearly be guilty of self-denigration as well. I remember that whenever one of my 'worldly', 'unbelieving' relatives would move the conversation onto something like evolution, doctrinal error in the Societys teachings or past historical blunders in prophecy all I could think of was how to get out of the room as quickly and politely as possible. As I said, the only time I ever put myself in the position of having to defend my beliefs was on the doorstep and we all know what a contrived and false reality that was. Very few of us ever got into the meat of doctrinal or theological debate, that's not what we were there for.
So yes, I sidestepped the issue of having to prove my beliefs many times and I think that at some level it was because I knew I was unable to defend them successfully in front of a real debater. I wasn't aware of that as a conscious thought and I'm sure I would have felt resentful at some guy [like me] suggesting that I was guilty of avoiding serious issues due to the weakness of my belief system, in fact I'm sure I'd have been quite shocked and offended.
Truth is, I think we all need to be shocked more often than we are. It pulls us up and makes us re-evaluate our assumptions.
I too don't believe in erecting boundaries between believers and non-believers and I don't think I was guilty of that. However, if there are not boundaries there are most definately differences - and that is just fine. Perhaps it's the Greek in me but I love to debate and argue [in the true sense of the word] - it doesn't mean I am out to 'get' anyone. In my family, everyone argues heatedly about politics, religion and who's mother makes the best moussaka but at the end of it all we bear-hug and laugh. Perhaps I should make allowance for my Scottish friends rather frail & delicate nature.
I kid!
We are 100% in agreement on challenging preconceptions. It was my doing that that led me out of 'The Truth' and then to the conclusion that there is no god. But as you intimate, I certainly have more respect for someone like you Ross who holds convictions out of a genuine and independantly arrived at stream of thought and experience. I may consider some pimply, arrogant teenage atheist raised by godless, religion hating bigots to hold a position that is closer to reality than a devout, sincere Christian - it seems absurd and I hate that the Universe sometimes throws out these quirks but that is not the same as saying I approve of attacking religion or worshippers of any faith. I embrace our differences but wish we could debate with soewhat thicker skins.
So then, what is my opinion of believers? It depends on the believer, just as I would hope that your opinion of atheists would depend upon the atheist.
One last thing. When I was at school I didn't really apply myself that much, what was the point, the New Order was "just around the corner". Years later, my wife was rushed into surgery for an emergency caeserean section to deliver our second child. It all went well and the paediatrician came to tell me what I needed to know and give some reassurance - he was one of my classmates from twenty years previous. While I had drifted through school in my cult-induced mental fog he had worked hard, studied and created a rewarding and meaningful career for himself. In that sense he most certainly was a more evolved individual than myself. We both had the same potential but he was the one that had done it.
So please don't take offence at the title of this topic but I have to be honest and say that I do consider moving away from - as I see it - a dependance on non-existant gods to be a sign of development and maturity.
I'm not trying to wind up you or anyone else, in fact I get the feeling Ross that you and I could sink a few double malts together and walk away as friends. I hope so.
Nic'
