Help out, I need an ex-jw opinion: Explanation of why I can't be a dub

by Check_Your_Premises 33 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Check_Your_Premises
    Check_Your_Premises

    Anybody who is trying to get a loved one out of the jw, knows you have to be open to their religion. Otherwise you are an opposer and they won't talk to you. But you also have to give a credible reason why you can't join "yet". It is also important to word your explanation carefully. As we all know, dubs have the truth, so they are likely to look think something is wrong with anyone who won't accept it.

    It is probably best to give an explanation that is based on your conscience as a Christian.

    So what I have written is my explanation. It is written so my 9-year old can follow it, and so it won't offend my jw spouse. It is an expanded adaptation of an analogy used by Ray Franz in ISOCF. I will probably add some verses to support some of the examples. It is intended to be read and discussed in a group setting among my family.

    So please put on your jw hat, and view it from that perspective. Let me know how you think it will be received.

    Keep in mind it is meant not to offend a jw, only help the jw understand and respect, AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, the conscientious concerns of an unbelieving mate.

    Will this help me or hinder me?! If it will hinder how can I make it better?!

    *********************************************************************************************************************

    The King's Messenger

    It was often the case that a king could not command his subjects in person, he would need to send a servant or a messenger to tell his subjects what he wanted. This is a good analogy to consider the different types of situations where God has used special servants or messengers.

    Note: The analogy isn't perfect of course. God also gave His Holy Spirit, and the the analogy uses an imperfect human king, whereas God is perfect. Otherwise it brings up some common situations that can happen when a king sends a messenger.

    The Messenger

    When a king picked a messenger, they had to be trustworthy. They had to be someone who would not take away or add to what the king wanted. If a situation came up where the king had not instructed on exactly, then the messenger had to be wise and faithful enough to handle it only the way the king would want; no more - no less.

    When the messenger arrived, he needed to be believable. What good would it do the king to send a message that nobody believed? And the people hearing the message, needed a way to be sure without any doubt, that the message came from the king. The loyal subjects would not want to follow a fake messenger because a fake messenger would very probably bring a message that was the opposite of what the king wanted.

    So the king always made sure to give the messenger something that proved without any doubt that the messenger was true.

    Just a Message

    Another way a king could make his will known, is to simply leave instructions for all to follow. In this case all who could read the message would be able to do what the king wanted.

    If the king was gone a long time, and nobody knew when he wold come back, after a while you would have people who would disagree about what the king meant in his message. Those who were honest and loved the king would do their best to understand the message and follow it according to their own understanding. The king would probably reward the faithful servants when they followed the message as he wanted. If the faithful subjects did not follow his instructions exactly, he would probably forgive them if they were only mistaken, and not dishonest. If the king is fair, he knows that nobody is perfect!

    Some would read the message more than others. The other subjects would look to these ones as experts, and would value their opinion. Some experts and subjects would say that since the experts understand the message so well, everyone should listen to them until the king gets back.

    Some faithful subjects would decide that their way of following the message was the right one. Some would even hurt or kill others, to force them to follow the message the way they do. Others would brag about how much better they were following the message than others. They would act like they were so much better than others who didn't follow the message like them.

    Some faithful subjects would try very hard to follow the king's instructions. They would also decide that it is best not to hurt anyone who disagrees with them because they understand that all people make mistakes. And besides, only the king knows for sure what he meant. Those faithful subjects would talk to others so they would think about the message the way they do. And they would always want to hear what others say about the message, because they know they make mistakes too!. These subjects don't worry so much about who is right. They just try their best to be right and help others do the same. When the king returns let him decide who followed the instructions correctly and provide any justice that needed to be applied.

    Some would be dishonest and disrespectful to the king, and they would try to find ways of reading the instructions so it helped them. Do you think the king would be happy with them?

    Another Way - Just a Message, but Also a Messenger

    Now suppose there was a person who picked up the message that everyone could read, and said that there was a special, hidden message that said he is chosen by the king to be the one true messenger. He then said that the hidden message said he alone could understand the king's message the right way, and that meant everybody should think like him and obey him. Because to disobey the king's one true messenger is to disobey the king himself!

    How should the other loyal subjects think about this guy who says he is the one true messenger? What if he is right? What if he is wrong? Either way the loyal subjects would have to be very careful to make sure!

    So what do they know?

    They definitely would have to look at the one true messenger's secret message, to see if they see it too. If the loyal subjects honestly don't see it, is something wrong with them? What should they do!?

    They would also have to remember that everybody would give anything to be the one true messenger for the king. Since the one true messenger wants the job more than anything, the loyal subjects should probably be suspicious that he is able to find a secret message that gives him his greatest wish!

    What if there are many who claim that they are the one true messenger?

  • Check_Your_Premises
    Check_Your_Premises

    bump to 200. I wanted to see if I was done being a "junior" yet.

  • love11
    love11
    a group of people devoted to beliefs and goals which are not held by the majority of society, often religious in nature. Its marginal status may come about either due to its novel belief system or due to idiosyncratic practices that cause the surrounding culture to regard it as far outside the mainstream

    This is what most of the world considers Jehovah's Witnesses to be like. How can 90% of the population of humanity be wrong. On wikipedia.org, this is the definition of a cult.

    If you think the idea of jw's being a cult is ridiculous then, why can't you read other books about religion? Why can't you associate with people outside of your religion? If abuse happens to you, why do you have to be quite about it and not tell police? If you disagree with a decision that the leaders make, why would that put your status in jeopardy? Why can't you decide what clothing you want to wear or what movies you want to watch? Why are you obligated to go to every meeting and if you don't you are talked bad about? Why do you have to go door to door to be in good standing? Why does the material always talk about negative things? Like- the end is coming, everyone else is evil, destroy the evildoer, etc,.

    I would like to add that sometimes we don't want to see the bad in something, so we stay blinded to it. Yes the sea of humanity has it's faults and some people turn out to be criminals. The mistake that the jw's make is that they will kick out good people, who may have just "sinned" in the christian sense of the word. Kicking people out for having sex is like throwing your children off of a bridge because they didn't clean up their room. It is unnecessarily cruel for family to treat a member of their family this way. It is modern day branding, and it should not be tolerated.

    Why do they have to have so much control over what everyone does? I may go to work with several different people who have different morals, that doesn't mean I'll turn out just like them. And it definetly doesn't mean that I'll stop talking to them and treating them with respect. That is what makes it a cult, the amount of control they have over your life. You can justify it by saying you are just following what Jehovah wants you to do, but Jesus himself did not like the pharisees for doing the same thing that the WT and elders are doing. If god wanted us to be that controlled he would have put up a fence around the 'tree of life' so that Eve could not eat from it.

  • Check_Your_Premises
    Check_Your_Premises
    How can 90% of the population of humanity be wrong

    Penalty Flag!

    What you just said is actually a common logical fallacy.

    Appeal to Popularity
    (argumentum ad populum)


    Definition:
      A proposition is held to be true because it is widely held to
      be true or is held to be true by some (usually upper crust)
      sector of the population.
      This fallacy is sometimes also called the "Appeal to Emotion"
      because emotional appeals often sway the population as a
      whole.
    Examples:
      (i) If you were beautiful, you could live like this, so buy
      Buty-EZ and become beautiful. (Here, the appeal is to the
      "beautiful people".)
      (ii) Polls suggest that the Liberals will form a majority
      government, so you may as well vote for them.
      (iii) Everyone knows that the Earth is flat, so why do you
      persist in your outlandish claims?
    References:
      Copi and Cohen: 103, Davis: 62
  • Check_Your_Premises
    Check_Your_Premises

    Most of the other stuff you said I agree with. Any input on "The King's Messenger"?

  • ezekiel3
    ezekiel3

    Check:

    Your analogy flows along logically, but fails to summarize or "close the deal."

    This is what any JW would refute with:

    1. Growth of Org (that's been waning lately)
    2. Worldwide unity of Org
    3. Org members do not fight in wars
    4. Org members all participate in the ministry
    5. Points 2-4 are commonly said to only apply to JWs, thus "proof" they have the truth.

    If you can work the above into your reasoning and bring it to a conclusion, you will have a very strong line to reason on.

  • Check_Your_Premises
    Check_Your_Premises

    Zeke,

    Thanks so much. You may be right. Maybe it doesn't quite close the deal. But keep in mind, I am not trying to refute anything. I am merely trying to give a sound justification why I can't, in good Christian conscience, become a dub "right now".

    And thanks for the common jw counterpoints, that is what EXACTLY what I need. Try as I may, I just can't think that way!

  • Check_Your_Premises
    Check_Your_Premises

    Zeke,

    Anyone can criticize...

    ...any suggestions on how to better close the deal?

  • love11
    love11

    It's not about what is popular, it's about what is true.

    I have not made a scientific poll to discover what the actual percentage of people is, but it doesn't take a scientist to figure out that the jw "religion" is a cult. Whether you like it or not, it is. If you go by the definition of what a cult is the jw's fit it perfectly. They have control over your every move, because if you disagree with them you will lose your family and friends. If you disobey them, you will lose your family and friends. It's also not wrong to say that is about the same thing that happens in a communist country. You cannot fall out of line or you will lose everything important to you, in the name of god of course. This publishing company only started about 100 or so years ago, yet they seem to think they are the only ones on earth that know what god wants. How haughty of them!

  • zen nudist
    zen nudist
    Most of the other stuff you said I agree with. Any input on "The King's Messenger"?

    when it comes to god, no one knows if the messengers are telling the truth because. 1. they have no proof from the one who sent them and 2. they have no proof that there even was someone who sent them... see the emperor's new clothes.

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